a general reply to the Catholics
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I daresay that the OP can be addressed to many on this site, be they Catholics or Pentecostals or Non-denominational. Most of us have had an encounter with a cruel believer on here, one that stalks you through the threads to argue with every post you make and ultimately harasses you in emails. I just choose to use the ignore option on the exceptionally violent and bullying factor on this site. As for the others, well, we are not going to agree all the time. Something I painfully learned on here is that sometimes I can come across overly passionate in my stand on something. In those moments, I have said things that appear pompous and proud, and later regretted it. Whenever I let 'me' get in the way of love and truth, I have to leave that thread behind.
Though I understand the OP's frustration, it could have been handled better. No one is going to take an attack on one's belief system lying down, as this thread has shown in a couple of responses. I do not agree with the Catholic religion on some fronts, but I know many Catholics and they are doing the best with what they've been given. It is God who sees their hearts and it is He alone who knows if they've accepted Christ as their Savior and are living for Him or not.
I think it is healthy to discuss different religions and belief systems, to better understand and see the points of view of others, but it should not be done in a way that puts the others immediately on the defensive, and sometimes in a hurtful and violent defensive. We will have to account for every word spoken...I wish I'd watched my words more carefully, as being 33 and learning this is a touch disheartening.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
I liked reading some of the responses, though. Very kind and considerate and informative, amongst the knee-jerk reactions that are there.
Though I understand the OP's frustration, it could have been handled better. No one is going to take an attack on one's belief system lying down, as this thread has shown in a couple of responses. I do not agree with the Catholic religion on some fronts, but I know many Catholics and they are doing the best with what they've been given. It is God who sees their hearts and it is He alone who knows if they've accepted Christ as their Savior and are living for Him or not.
I think it is healthy to discuss different religions and belief systems, to better understand and see the points of view of others, but it should not be done in a way that puts the others immediately on the defensive, and sometimes in a hurtful and violent defensive. We will have to account for every word spoken...I wish I'd watched my words more carefully, as being 33 and learning this is a touch disheartening.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
I liked reading some of the responses, though. Very kind and considerate and informative, amongst the knee-jerk reactions that are there. There are more true hearted christinas in the catholic churches than in any other large church
They have not heard the Bible yet, whereas all the incorrect churches that teach the bible, they have no excuse for how they worship incorrectly yet do it anyway even though the Bible says no
So many true hearted people from the catholic church.
Jesus says:
My sheep here my voice in the word of God and they follow me.
They have not heard the Bible yet, whereas all the incorrect churches that teach the bible, they have no excuse for how they worship incorrectly yet do it anyway even though the Bible says no
So many true hearted people from the catholic church.
Jesus says:
My sheep here my voice in the word of God and they follow me.
We say that when Jesus died on the cross for our sins, He did away with the old covenant and gave us a new covenant. According to Christ, the only requirement for worship is that we must worship in spirit and in truth. I don't see how you can blanket all other churches as being incorrect worshippers.
We tend to forget the most important thing: those that aren't against us are for us. We fight amongst ourselves so much, is it any wonder that many consider Christianity to not be something to do, considering the fact that we speak of love yet live lives of condemnation and anger?
Worship is about praising God with a right heart, keeping Christ as focus, and lifting ones voice to proclaim His majesty. The only incorrect forms of worship that I can see is when there is self-abuse or some kind of intoxicating item used to enter a state of meditation or dream world. I don't see that happening in a lot of Christ proclaiming churches, though.
We tend to forget the most important thing: those that aren't against us are for us. We fight amongst ourselves so much, is it any wonder that many consider Christianity to not be something to do, considering the fact that we speak of love yet live lives of condemnation and anger?
Worship is about praising God with a right heart, keeping Christ as focus, and lifting ones voice to proclaim His majesty. The only incorrect forms of worship that I can see is when there is self-abuse or some kind of intoxicating item used to enter a state of meditation or dream world. I don't see that happening in a lot of Christ proclaiming churches, though.
Thank you for your clear expressing of your understandings; I found them informative and interesting. The ground I stand on as I contend with the many that dislike finding out that they argue from a point of tradition not facts. I am sorry Sir if I feel inspired by the Lord. Maybe you could explain how bad it was when the Lord made a whip from the cords and beat the servers of self from God's presents. Couldn't he just get along!
I daresay that the OP can be addressed to many on this site, be they Catholics or Pentecostals or Non-denominational. Most of us have had an encounter with a cruel believer on here, one that stalks you through the threads to argue with every post you make and ultimately harasses you in emails. I just choose to use the ignore option on the exceptionally violent and bullying factor on this site. As for the others, well, we are not going to agree all the time. Something I painfully learned on here is that sometimes I can come across overly passionate in my stand on something. In those moments, I have said things that appear pompous and proud, and later regretted it. Whenever I let 'me' get in the way of love and truth, I have to leave that thread behind.
Though I understand the OP's frustration, it could have been handled better. No one is going to take an attack on one's belief system lying down, as this thread has shown in a couple of responses. I do not agree with the Catholic religion on some fronts, but I know many Catholics and they are doing the best with what they've been given. It is God who sees their hearts and it is He alone who knows if they've accepted Christ as their Savior and are living for Him or not.
I think it is healthy to discuss different religions and belief systems, to better understand and see the points of view of others, but it should not be done in a way that puts the others immediately on the defensive, and sometimes in a hurtful and violent defensive. We will have to account for every word spoken...I wish I'd watched my words more carefully, as being 33 and learning this is a touch disheartening.
Anyway, just my thoughts. I liked reading some of the responses, though. Very kind and considerate and informative, amongst the knee-jerk reactions that are there.
Though I understand the OP's frustration, it could have been handled better. No one is going to take an attack on one's belief system lying down, as this thread has shown in a couple of responses. I do not agree with the Catholic religion on some fronts, but I know many Catholics and they are doing the best with what they've been given. It is God who sees their hearts and it is He alone who knows if they've accepted Christ as their Savior and are living for Him or not.
I think it is healthy to discuss different religions and belief systems, to better understand and see the points of view of others, but it should not be done in a way that puts the others immediately on the defensive, and sometimes in a hurtful and violent defensive. We will have to account for every word spoken...I wish I'd watched my words more carefully, as being 33 and learning this is a touch disheartening.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
I liked reading some of the responses, though. Very kind and considerate and informative, amongst the knee-jerk reactions that are there.
No one can say with 100% authority that their religion is completely right and following God's doctrine 100%, so try not to be so pompous. I never said there was a church that did as you're saying, I'm saying that worship is between the person and God. Any attempts to standardize, regulate and condemn based on worship is how religions were created in the first place.
I am a catholic believer, and would like to apologize for any of my brothers and sisters that have spoken rudely and arrogantly to anyone on this web site.
"If we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we shall be saved." Romans 10:13 (paraphrased)
This condemning of one another is anathema, for a christian to condemn anyone, be it other believers or the ungodly is anathema. Christians have not been called to condemn the world, but to save the world. We have been chosen by God to live as Jesus lived and lay down our lives for the salvation of others.
Any christian who is judging and condemning others needs to repent and believe the gospel.
Once the Catholic Church became the religion of the Roman Empire (circa 380ad), it became arrogant and considered itself equal to the Most High God. It committed adultery with the world and fell from grace. Once the Catholic Church condemned humanity and began killing humans in the name of Jesus Christ it died. I do not know the exact day or hour that this happened, but the evidence is all around us. Just as the Chosen fell from grace for rejecting Jesus Christ, so also the Church is fallen, that all of humanity would understand that only God has saved the world, no human has helped God save the world. God saved the world before the world began in Jesus Christ.
The Church says to this day: I am not dead, but alive in Christ, I will never die for God is in me.
Who has told you that you are alive even while you are dead in trespass and sin? Certainly this is not what your Lord told you. The soul that sins is the one that shall die.
Has anyone who professed Christ not died? Did the Apostles (who you regard as equal to your Lord) not die? Did your Lord not die? How is it that you are alive while your Lord is dead to this age?
The Church says to this day: we have the gospel, we rest on the promise of God. God has made us alive in Christ and we have eternal life because we believe the message from God that Jesus is his Son and died for our sins.
That is good that you have heard the gospel and believed in Him. What have you done with that knowledge? Have you loved as Jesus loves, do you obey his commandments? Are we not dead in Christ?
If one would not die who professed Christ, then one could argue that they are alive. But in that all who have professed Christ die, then we remain dead in Christ to this day. When Christ is revealed to this age as alive from the dead, then we who have believed will be revealed in his life as we are revealed in his death, if we enter into his death.
The Church says to this day: the blood of Christ has made us clean. Who are you O'man to say God has not cleaned us?
If God had cleaned us we would be holy, pure and without sin, do you believe you are without sin?
Your confessional booth is evidence that you remain in sin. So how is it you say you are alive; is God a liar?
Did God make sin alive in you while condemning the sin in the rest of humanity? There are two deaths: one of man, and one of God. Certainly you know this, being the Judgers of the world, surely you understand of what I say. Have you not judged the world and have you not condemned others while justifying yourself? How is it you justify your own sin but not the sin of your brother? You marvel at the depravity of man, but consider not that you O'man of God are the most evil of them all. Our beloved Peter knew this and told you this. Our beloved Paul told you this, and the most beloved John told you this. What have you done to His Body? What have we done?
Our most beloved John told you that he that has not love has not God for God is love; who condemns a human?
Are we not sinful men dead in Christ? Who has seen The Lord? Are we not dead until Christ is revealed? Who has seen The Lord and not told us? Who condemns any human except God?
The Church is fallen and will not rise until Christ is revealed. Is God the bridegroom of satan? Does Jesus marry the evil one or humanity?
God is love and will marry those who turn from evil; and abide in love. God dwells with no sin ever.
Repent and believe the gospel, love covers a multitude of sins.
If we say we are alive while we are yet dead in Christ, and judge and condemn any human then we lie, we are dead in Christ until he returns because we remain sinful.
If we were without sin then we would not die, so we can condemn no one. We are dead in Christ who loved all humanity and died for all humanity. If He died for us who know him, then we know he can save even those who do not yet comprehend him. Because our comprehension didn't save us, Jesus saved us.
Who are you O'man to condemn another while you live in sin? Has your Lord been revealed? Have the heavens shaken and rolled up like a scroll?
Where in your holy scroll does it say a sinner judges humanity? You are undone, you are fallen wickedness. You think to yourself how can God save the murderer when you have killed countless.
What has light to do with darkness? What is sin but to not love, if you continue in sin you are not of God, if we love we are of God.
Have you not the Holy Spirit? Are you not the Vicar?
Who has told you who to condemn?
Apologize? Are you really serious?
You continue in this lie that you are without error and yet even the most vile sinner can see you are a murderer.
Until you repent God does not know you.
Those who love are saved because God is love.
None of your laws or precepts can condemn love, God is the LAW and he has told you that it is his desire that all are saved. Why haven't you told them yet?
You give them laws and commandments as if you are God when God told you to love and you say you are sorry. You rape and pillage the world and say that you are sorry? Are you insane? My God man are we serious?
You do not know God, God is love and so loved all of humanity that he found pleasure in showing to to them who He is. God did not create humanity to become as evil, but to become as He is. Love overcomes all things. Who are you O'man to condemn something that God loves?
There is only one Church, this is an exhortation to all believers.
May God have mercy on all our souls in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Three witnesses: Peter, first among the apostles. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
"If we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we shall be saved." Romans 10:13 (paraphrased)
This condemning of one another is anathema, for a christian to condemn anyone, be it other believers or the ungodly is anathema. Christians have not been called to condemn the world, but to save the world. We have been chosen by God to live as Jesus lived and lay down our lives for the salvation of others.
Any christian who is judging and condemning others needs to repent and believe the gospel.
Once the Catholic Church became the religion of the Roman Empire (circa 380ad), it became arrogant and considered itself equal to the Most High God. It committed adultery with the world and fell from grace. Once the Catholic Church condemned humanity and began killing humans in the name of Jesus Christ it died. I do not know the exact day or hour that this happened, but the evidence is all around us. Just as the Chosen fell from grace for rejecting Jesus Christ, so also the Church is fallen, that all of humanity would understand that only God has saved the world, no human has helped God save the world. God saved the world before the world began in Jesus Christ.
The Church says to this day: I am not dead, but alive in Christ, I will never die for God is in me.
Who has told you that you are alive even while you are dead in trespass and sin? Certainly this is not what your Lord told you. The soul that sins is the one that shall die.
Has anyone who professed Christ not died? Did the Apostles (who you regard as equal to your Lord) not die? Did your Lord not die? How is it that you are alive while your Lord is dead to this age?
The Church says to this day: we have the gospel, we rest on the promise of God. God has made us alive in Christ and we have eternal life because we believe the message from God that Jesus is his Son and died for our sins.
That is good that you have heard the gospel and believed in Him. What have you done with that knowledge? Have you loved as Jesus loves, do you obey his commandments? Are we not dead in Christ?
If one would not die who professed Christ, then one could argue that they are alive. But in that all who have professed Christ die, then we remain dead in Christ to this day. When Christ is revealed to this age as alive from the dead, then we who have believed will be revealed in his life as we are revealed in his death, if we enter into his death.
The Church says to this day: the blood of Christ has made us clean. Who are you O'man to say God has not cleaned us?
If God had cleaned us we would be holy, pure and without sin, do you believe you are without sin?
Your confessional booth is evidence that you remain in sin. So how is it you say you are alive; is God a liar?
Did God make sin alive in you while condemning the sin in the rest of humanity? There are two deaths: one of man, and one of God. Certainly you know this, being the Judgers of the world, surely you understand of what I say. Have you not judged the world and have you not condemned others while justifying yourself? How is it you justify your own sin but not the sin of your brother? You marvel at the depravity of man, but consider not that you O'man of God are the most evil of them all. Our beloved Peter knew this and told you this. Our beloved Paul told you this, and the most beloved John told you this. What have you done to His Body? What have we done?
Our most beloved John told you that he that has not love has not God for God is love; who condemns a human?
Are we not sinful men dead in Christ? Who has seen The Lord? Are we not dead until Christ is revealed? Who has seen The Lord and not told us? Who condemns any human except God?
The Church is fallen and will not rise until Christ is revealed. Is God the bridegroom of satan? Does Jesus marry the evil one or humanity?
God is love and will marry those who turn from evil; and abide in love. God dwells with no sin ever.
Repent and believe the gospel, love covers a multitude of sins.
If we say we are alive while we are yet dead in Christ, and judge and condemn any human then we lie, we are dead in Christ until he returns because we remain sinful.
If we were without sin then we would not die, so we can condemn no one. We are dead in Christ who loved all humanity and died for all humanity. If He died for us who know him, then we know he can save even those who do not yet comprehend him. Because our comprehension didn't save us, Jesus saved us.
Who are you O'man to condemn another while you live in sin? Has your Lord been revealed? Have the heavens shaken and rolled up like a scroll?
Where in your holy scroll does it say a sinner judges humanity? You are undone, you are fallen wickedness. You think to yourself how can God save the murderer when you have killed countless.
What has light to do with darkness? What is sin but to not love, if you continue in sin you are not of God, if we love we are of God.
Have you not the Holy Spirit? Are you not the Vicar?
Who has told you who to condemn?
Apologize? Are you really serious?
You continue in this lie that you are without error and yet even the most vile sinner can see you are a murderer.
Until you repent God does not know you.
Those who love are saved because God is love.
None of your laws or precepts can condemn love, God is the LAW and he has told you that it is his desire that all are saved. Why haven't you told them yet?
You give them laws and commandments as if you are God when God told you to love and you say you are sorry. You rape and pillage the world and say that you are sorry? Are you insane? My God man are we serious?
You do not know God, God is love and so loved all of humanity that he found pleasure in showing to to them who He is. God did not create humanity to become as evil, but to become as He is. Love overcomes all things. Who are you O'man to condemn something that God loves?
There is only one Church, this is an exhortation to all believers.
May God have mercy on all our souls in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
Three witnesses: Peter, first among the apostles. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Where does it say the children of God remain dead to Christ after belief and repentance?
Christ has already been revealed to this age as being resurrected from the dead. The written testimony confirmed it and documented it.
The children of God are not revealed in Christ death they are revealed by the fruit they produce by His life dwelling within them by the Holy Spirit
So all the men of God from Abel to the apostles are the most evil men of them all.
Where have they mentioned this… that all children of God who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are the most evil of all man born of woman?
Christ has already been revealed to this age as being resurrected from the dead. The written testimony confirmed it and documented it.
The children of God are not revealed in Christ death they are revealed by the fruit they produce by His life dwelling within them by the Holy Spirit
So all the men of God from Abel to the apostles are the most evil men of them all.
Where have they mentioned this… that all children of God who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are the most evil of all man born of woman?
Hmmm! Interesting to read: Pope Francis Says There is no Hell and The Creation Story is a Moral Fable #Hoax
This is a reply to: RockbySea
Where does it say the children of God remain dead "in" Christ after belief and repentance?
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Colossians 4:3-4
Christ has already been revealed to this age as being resurrected from the dead. The written testimony confirmed it and documented it.
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as He is." 1John 3:2
The children of God are not revealed in Christ death they are revealed by the fruit they produce by his life dwelling within them by the Holy Spirit.
"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." Romans 6:3-5
So all the men of God from Abel to the apostles are the most evil of them all?
"And Jesus answered them,"Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:31-32
"For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
The end is at hand; therefore be self-controlled, and sober minded for the sake of your prayers. Above all things, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1Peter 4:6-8
Where have they mentioned this ... that all children of God who have the indwelling of the holy Spirit are the most evil of all man born of woman?
"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." 1Timothy 1:15-16
If God can save Paul and myself, then I can assure you he can save anyone.God has saved the worst of humanity so that no one has any excuse to deny his love.
Christ be with you always.
Where does it say the children of God remain dead "in" Christ after belief and repentance?
"For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Colossians 4:3-4
Christ has already been revealed to this age as being resurrected from the dead. The written testimony confirmed it and documented it.
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when He appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as He is." 1John 3:2
The children of God are not revealed in Christ death they are revealed by the fruit they produce by his life dwelling within them by the Holy Spirit.
"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his." Romans 6:3-5
So all the men of God from Abel to the apostles are the most evil of them all?
"And Jesus answered them,"Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:31-32
"For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
The end is at hand; therefore be self-controlled, and sober minded for the sake of your prayers. Above all things, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1Peter 4:6-8
Where have they mentioned this ... that all children of God who have the indwelling of the holy Spirit are the most evil of all man born of woman?
"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." 1Timothy 1:15-16
If God can save Paul and myself, then I can assure you he can save anyone.God has saved the worst of humanity so that no one has any excuse to deny his love.
Christ be with you always.
P
Sure, I can explain that to you. What does it have to do with anything that is being discussed in this thread? The catholic church claims to be a direct descendent of Peter's authority. Me, I prefer Paul. He preached for me and to me, and he got his gospel straight from Christ, and when Peter started slipping back into the law Paul had to get in his face and straighten him out.
It says “you have died” and then he goes on to say “and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” That’s the opposite of what you are saying. One is not dead in Christ but they first die and then their life is hidden in Christ which means they are living in Christ. And Christ is not dead but He is alive and so is the one hidden in Christ. But Paul goes on to say (important part you left out) what he means when he says, “you have died”:
“Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.”
It’s the sinful nature that dies because the elect take on the nature of Christ. The elect of God are not the most evil people on the planet as you say.
That scripture does not say that Christ was never “revealed to this age alive from the dead.” This is talking about the future and how the elect will change and appear like Christ when He appears at His coming. Christ has already been revealed “to this age alive from the dead” to many witnesses after His death and it’s recorded in scripture.
Again… We are “baptized into His death” and then “we walk in newness of life” because we are born anew and it’s the fruits that are produced when the elect “walk in newness of life” that reveal the children of God. “You will know them by their fruits.” And the children of God walk in that newness of life not because Christ is dead but because He lives within them.
Yes… and Christ being the physician makes them well by bringing sinners to repentance which means men of God are not the most evil men on the planet because they are brought to repentance and walk in newness of life.
Yes Paul was chief among sinners… but after he was saved he didn’t remain chief among sinners because he too walked in newness of life.
Your doctrine is opposite to what was once delivered. It’s a teaching of death and perpetual corruption (sin) within the elect of God until Christ’s return.
“Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.”
It’s the sinful nature that dies because the elect take on the nature of Christ. The elect of God are not the most evil people on the planet as you say.
That scripture does not say that Christ was never “revealed to this age alive from the dead.” This is talking about the future and how the elect will change and appear like Christ when He appears at His coming. Christ has already been revealed “to this age alive from the dead” to many witnesses after His death and it’s recorded in scripture.
Again… We are “baptized into His death” and then “we walk in newness of life” because we are born anew and it’s the fruits that are produced when the elect “walk in newness of life” that reveal the children of God. “You will know them by their fruits.” And the children of God walk in that newness of life not because Christ is dead but because He lives within them.
Yes… and Christ being the physician makes them well by bringing sinners to repentance which means men of God are not the most evil men on the planet because they are brought to repentance and walk in newness of life.
Yes Paul was chief among sinners… but after he was saved he didn’t remain chief among sinners because he too walked in newness of life.
Your doctrine is opposite to what was once delivered. It’s a teaching of death and perpetual corruption (sin) within the elect of God until Christ’s return.
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Paul considered himself to be the chief among sinners. There is no such thing. Sin is sin. It is a show of Paul's humility that he viewed himself so lowly. And, yes, we are dead to sin in Christ yet we are alive in Him, so we are not dead if we are His. Just as He died and rose again, we die to sin and are made alive again when we accept Him. To be dead to sin doesn't mean we become sinless, however. It means that we are given the ability to say no to sin, whereas before we were slaves to sin.