DEBATE - CATHOLIC vs PROTESTANT

[Hizikyah]

So both the protestant, Dcontroversal and the protestant, notuptome, have answered "YES" that justified believers do still sin, and that adultery and murder are included in such sins. So here are my last two questions about justification.......

If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?



I await your answer......Also if any other non-catholics would like to respond, then I invite you as well to give an answer to this question

If one continues in sin, not saying one little sin, but living in sin or sins unto death, then they are trampling the son of Yahweh underfoot. PERIOD. And thus on dangerous ground, I am not the one appointed to judge, but I would not advise this path to any.

Hebrews 10:26-30, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."

 

[TaylorTG]

@Roger
Hello again.
I see I overestimated you. I'll post some evidence, hang on tight.

How can you claim that Moses prayed repetitious prayers? Do you have a recording of them? Moses prayers were frank conversation with God not repetitious prayers. Frankly I find your postulation to be without support.

When it comes to prayer God wants to hear what is on our hearts not how many lines we can recite from a prayer book. Perhaps it comes from a different perspective of what a believers relationship with God ought to be.

Matthew 26:36-44
The agony in the garden

You see? This section directly mentions Jesus Christ, our Lord, repeating the same prayers three times. As I said in post #92, as long as my minds and hearts are truly connected with God when in prayer, we may repeat various prayers many times and still gain merit.


Regarding Moses
Exodus 17:8-13
Battle with Amalek

Now, this section may not directly say that Moses practiced repetitious prayers, but of course, given that Moses prayed for the the start of the battle until sunset, we can assume he repeated several of his prayers.




For the cause of Christ,

Taylor the taco eater.​

 

[phil112]

...................................Now, this section may not directly say that Moses practiced repetitious prayers, but of course, given that Moses prayed for the the start of the battle until sunset, we can assume he repeated several of his prayers.................................

That's right. Catholics ASSUME a whole lot to believe what they do.

I still stand by: "It is better to base doctrine on what the bible says, rather than what it doesn't say".

 

[TaylorTG]

@Phil

That's right. Catholics ASSUME a whole lot to believe what they do.

I still stand by: "It is better to base doctrine on what the bible says, rather than what it doesn't say".

Keep in mind, sir, that just because a certain word, place, etc.. isn't directly mentioned in the bible doesn't mean that the concept of that word, place, etc.. is not taught.

Example: The word: "trinity" may not be in the bible, but we know of its existence via continous mentions of God the father, son, and the Holy spirit.

It's important for us to expand our minds when reading scripture. Practical intelligence and critical thinking skills will help prove the authority of certain doctrines, ideas, and claims.

 

[Pappy]

In the End we have one lord to look upon to White, Black .Jewish are baptist God will not turn you away for you faith .......

 

[MarkMulder]

In the End we have one lord to look upon to QUOTE]

... and wouldn't be awesome if the non christians got that too?


-John14:6-

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

Dcontroversal and notuptome said "YES" that a justified believer still commits sin, and this can even include such sins as what King David had committed(ie - murder and adultery)

So here again is my final question....

If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?



I await your answer Dccontroversal and notuptome......Also if any other non-catholics would like to respond, then I invite you as well to give an answer to this question

 

[preacha24_7]

The devil got people deceived!! How many times do I have to tell you catholics are not Christians. The roman catholic church is corrupt. They believe and practice things that are not in the bible. The pope claims to be infallible?? That's blasphemous. Jesus is the only who never sinned. That's why he was the perfect sacrifice. He was innocent yet he took all the pain on the cross to die for us. Jesus purpose on this earth was to destroy the works of Satan and to redeem man. Praying to Mary is wrong. Confessing my sins to a priest is also wrong. Jesus Christ is our high priest. You can pray a thousand hail Mary's but if you ain't born again you still gonna bust hell wide open. Wake up my christian brothers and sisters and stand up for true christian beliefs. Christianity and false religions do not mix. Ephesians 5:11-12 and have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather expose them for it is even shameful to speak of the things they do. New king James version. Preacha24-7

 

[notuptome]

@Roger
Hello again.
I see I overestimated you. I'll post some evidence, hang on tight.
Matthew 26:36-44
The agony in the garden

You see? This section directly mentions Jesus Christ, our Lord, repeating the same prayers three times. As I said in post #92, as long as my minds and hearts are truly connected with God when in prayer, we may repeat various prayers many times and still gain merit.

You are assuming an awful lot in this passage. Jesus did not pray for His own benefit but for ours. To assume that Jesus was repeating His prayers when He asked of His Father the same question maybe three times is to read way more into the text that is there. The vain and repetitious prayers were associated with the pagans who prayed the same words over and over again often at a high rate of speed. I'll not make an illusion to the Pentecostals because that is not on subject. Jesus did not open His prayer book and pray structured prayers over and over again supposing to gain favor with His Father. It just isn't there anywhere.

Regarding Moses
Exodus 17:8-13
Battle with Amalek

Now, this section may not directly say that Moses practiced repetitious prayers, but of course, given that Moses prayed for the the start of the battle until sunset, we can assume he repeated several of his prayers.

Here is the prime example of taking a passage of scripture and reading it with a predetermined application. Only God and Moses know what Moses prayed on that day. We cannot take scripture and make it support our doctrine. We must take scripture and make it our doctrine.

Heathen and pagans pray empty repetitious prayers. Believers pray to their heavenly Father as beloved children in need of encouragement and comfort. I have needs everyday and they are not always the same but I always have needs. My Father in heaven know of my needs and I am told to come boldly into His presence that He may bless me.

I do not have a distant relationship with God. Repetitious prayers are for those who cannot draw near unto God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Dcontroversal and notuptome said "YES" that a justified believer still commits sin, and this can even include such sins as what King David had committed(ie - murder and adultery)

So here again is my final question....

If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?



I await your answer Dccontroversal and notuptome......Also if any other non-catholics would like to respond, then I invite you as well to give an answer to this question

First let me say that just because you believe it doesn't make it so.

You continue to evolve the criteria of the scenario. Now you are adding repentance into the equation. That's fine but if you study 1 Corinthians 5 you will see how Paul addressed a similar issue.

Since we are justified by grace we cannot lose our justification. If we had earned our justification then we could forfeit it. Since rome teaches that grace is obtained by rituals and rites they teach that in the absence of the same one forfeits their salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Vernon]

First let me say that just because you believe it doesn't make it so.

You continue to evolve the criteria of the scenario. Now you are adding repentance into the equation. That's fine but if you study 1 Corinthians 5 you will see how Paul addressed a similar issue.

Since we are justified by grace we cannot lose our justification. If we had earned our justification then we could forfeit it. Since rome teaches that grace is obtained by rituals and rites they teach that in the absence of the same one forfeits their salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Catholic Church holds that "by grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

This is what I was taught by the Catholic Church is how we are justified. I have also been taught that if we do not continue in love (charity) our Lord has said He will erase our name from the book of life. The New Testament writers continually exhort believers to continue in the faith and not fall away back into the flesh. For catholics to remain in grace is by participation in the sacraments of the Church. We do not view our salvation as a one time profession of faith, but a life time profession of faith which for catholics is fulfilled by our participation in the sacraments of the Church.
This is not accomplished by our own worth or contribution but by the sanctifying grace of God, without which no one will be saved.

 

[notuptome]

The Catholic Church holds that "by grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

This is what I was taught by the Catholic Church is how we are justified. I have also been taught that if we do not continue in love (charity) our Lord has said He will erase our name from the book of life. The New Testament writers continually exhort believers to continue in the faith and not fall away back into the flesh. For catholics to remain in grace is by participation in the sacraments of the Church. We do not view our salvation as a one time profession of faith, but a life time profession of faith which for catholics is fulfilled by our participation in the sacraments of the Church.
This is not accomplished by our own worth or contribution but by the sanctifying grace of God, without which no one will be saved.

That would be great if you only stopped after the first paragraph. The second paragraph contradicts the first. Paul asked how are you begun in grace and then perfected in works. Galatians if I recall.

Grace and works are not mixed together. Grace produces works Ephesians 2:10 but works cannot invalidate grace. Once God's child forever God's child by the new birth.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Vernon]

That would be great if you only stopped after the first paragraph. The second paragraph contradicts the first. Paul asked how are you begun in grace and then perfected in works. Galatians if I recall.

Grace and works are not mixed together. Grace produces works Ephesians 2:10 but works cannot invalidate grace. Once God's child forever God's child by the new birth.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

the good works are only accomplished by the grace of God given us to perform them, I plainly stated that.

 

[notuptome]

the good works are only accomplished by the grace of God given us to perform them, I plainly stated that.

Ok I'll give you that but why tie grace to the "sacraments"? Works do not produce grace nor do the rites and sacraments produce grace. Grace is unmerited favor of God. Unmerited is the key part of grace. We do not deserve God's grace nor can we add to or take away from it. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For God made Christ to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

God imputes the righteousness of Christ to us when we ask for forgiveness of our sins and acknowledge our inability to save ourselves. God is indeed good above all that we could hope or expect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

So both the protestant, Dcontroversal and the protestant, notuptome, have answered "YES" that justified believers do still sin, and that adultery and murder are included in such sins. So here are my last two questions about justification.......

If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?




I await your answer......Also if any other non-catholics would like to respond, then I invite you as well to give an answer to this question

Sin is sin is sin...Salvation, Justification and Sanctification are applied one time to a believer when they trust into Jesus as their savior. When it comes to your eternal Spirit this is a once for all act as all three listed stand in the perfect faith of Christ. Being born of God can never change, yet our fellowship can be broken if we do the above sins and require forgiveness from God (not some stand in) and upon such repentance and forgiveness our fellowship with God is restored and will use the following example.

My son's name is David Paul...he will be my son by birth from the day he came forth throughout all eternity as that cannot be changed. Sometimes he makes me mad by doing something that is against my will at which time our fellowship is broken. After I discipline him or rebuke him he apologizes and I forgive him and restore our fellowship...the fact that he is my son never changed through out the whole process. The same is true with the three (bolded above) the standing I have in Christ is eternal and when I sin the fellowship I have with God is broken and the only way to restore the fellowship is repentance and forgiveness.

My answer to your bolded question is No as you cannot be re-justified in your spiritual standing before God although your fellowship can be broken and needs to be restored EVERY TIME YOU/WE sin.

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

This was the question I posed to both Dcontroversal and notuptome.......... If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?

And this was notuptome's answer...

we cannot lose our justification......

So notuptome believes a justified believer can later commit adultery and murder without losing one's justification and therefore not losing one's salvation. Plus he believes repentance is not necessary to regain one's justification. I would like to know if the non-Catholics in this forum agree with what notuptome has said. I look forward to reading the answers you post.

 

[SilkandDungarees6]

This was the question I posed to both Dcontroversal and notuptome.......... If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?

And this was Dcontroversal's answer...

My answer to your bolded question is No as you cannot be re-justified in your spiritual standing before God .....

So Dcontroversal believes a justified believer can later commit adultery and murder without losing one's justification and therefore will not lose one's salvation, even though he claims fellowship could be broken with God. Plus he believes repentance is not necessary to regain one's justification, and therefore unnecessary for salvation. I would like to know if the non-Catholics in this forum agree with what Dcontroversal has said. I look forward to reading the answers you post.

 

[danschance]

I am not a catholic but I do admire the RCC's strong stance on confession. To bad they think only a priest can forgive sin. The bible states we are to confes our sins to each other and not to a priest.

 

[dcontroversal]

This was the question I posed to both Dcontroversal and notuptome.......... If a justified believer commits adultery and murder, then does that individual lose his or her justification and therefore needs to repent of those sins, as we Catholics believe, in order to regain one's justification?

And this was Dcontroversal's answer...

So Dcontroversal believes a justified believer can later commit adultery and murder without losing one's justification and therefore will not lose one's salvation, even though he claims fellowship could be broken with God. Plus he believes repentance is not necessary to regain one's justification, and therefore unnecessary for salvation. I would like to know if the non-Catholics in this forum agree with what Dcontroversal has said. I look forward to reading the answers you post.

If you are going to quote me, please use my entire quote and be not like the politicians and news agencies which twists things out of context...thanks as my quote was....

Sin is sin is sin...Salvation, Justification and Sanctification are applied one time to a believer when they trust into Jesus as their savior. When it comes to your eternal Spirit this is a once for all act as all three listed stand in the perfect faith of Christ. Being born of God can never change, yet our fellowship can be broken if we do the above sins and require forgiveness from God (not some stand in) and upon such repentance and forgiveness our fellowship with God is restored and will use the following example.

My son's name is David Paul...he will be my son by birth from the day he came forth throughout all eternity as that cannot be changed. Sometimes he makes me mad by doing something that is against my will at which time our fellowship is broken. After I discipline him or rebuke him he apologizes and I forgive him and restore our fellowship...the fact that he is my son never changed through out the whole process. The same is true with the three (bolded above) the standing I have in Christ is eternal and when I sin the fellowship I have with God is broken and the only way to restore the fellowship is repentance and forgiveness.

My answer to your bolded question is No as you cannot be re-justified in your spiritual standing before God although your fellowship can be broken and needs to be restored EVERY TIME YOU/WE sin.

 

[7seven7]

I am not a catholic but I do admire the RCC's strong stance on confession. To bad they think only a priest can forgive sin. The bible states we are to confes our sins to each other and not to a priest.

The bible doesn't actually say "not to a priest." Your comment is purposely very misleading. First of all, the priests are included in the "each other" category, so that argument is void. Secondly, the belief that we Catholics rightly hold is that our priests and bishops are successors of the apostles, whom Christ told to go and forgive people's sins. If you do a bit of research instead of just pretending you know what the Catholic Church teaches, you will see how we came to this understanding, which puts a priest in a much better position to forgive sins than you or me. Do a little research. Find out a little more about this Church you hate so much. The best way to beat your enemy is to know them. Get to know the Carholic church so at least then your arguments and accusations hold some value.