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John, you asked Crossnote for an explination on what he said. So I simply showed you were it came from in scripture. Now you want me to explain scripture to you as well? OK, I will do my best. If you continue reading the context Paul explains it.
Paul died to the law by dying with Christ on the cross. The law condemns us by our sins, i.e. death by sin. Yet We are made alive thru faith in Christ by His victory over death on the Cross. We are not justified by the Mosaic laws or brought to life by them as the law only condemns. The law can no longer condemn the believer as our sins are covered by the grace of God. This is why it is foolish to place ourselves under the Mosaic law, because if we try to justify ourselves by the works of the law, we mock the death of Christ.
Paul died to the law by dying with Christ on the cross. The law condemns us by our sins, i.e. death by sin. Yet We are made alive thru faith in Christ by His victory over death on the Cross. We are not justified by the Mosaic laws or brought to life by them as the law only condemns. The law can no longer condemn the believer as our sins are covered by the grace of God. This is why it is foolish to place ourselves under the Mosaic law, because if we try to justify ourselves by the works of the law, we mock the death of Christ.
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Once we become Christians the Mosaic laws have no hold on us we need not obey them. We are to obey the Law of Christ which are also the Moral laws. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial laws as they pointed to him.
Sacrifice of animals--->Sacrifice of Christ
Temple in Jerusalem--->Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit
...and so on.
Sacrifice of animals--->Sacrifice of Christ
Temple in Jerusalem--->Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit
...and so on.
We disagree over and over. What you say is scripture, exactly, up to the very last "mock the death of Christ" when we listen to the law. We mock Christ when we decide the law is not Holy, is not for us, when we decide to deny what Christ says about the law. We mock Christ if we say it is obedience to the law, not grace and Christ that is our salvation, but not by listening to God's law. What you are teaching results in the church allowing sin to be part of us, for if we listen to ourselves saying we are only of Christ without checking ourselves with His word, we can be led astray. Our church has been led astray by not labeling sin correctly. That takes scripture.
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"mock the death of Christ" = I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[SUP]b[/SUP] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. Gal. 2:21
Those who claim to be justified by the Mosaic law are in fact mocking the death of Christ. This is completely biblical. I never said that that those who believe in an obsolete, defunct Mosaic laws are mocking Christ. There is a difference and you missed it. What you can't see is the scriptures I posted with that post. People who engage in a defunct system, the Mosaic law, are simply deceived.
Those who claim to be justified by the Mosaic law are in fact mocking the death of Christ. This is completely biblical. I never said that that those who believe in an obsolete, defunct Mosaic laws are mocking Christ. There is a difference and you missed it. What you can't see is the scriptures I posted with that post. People who engage in a defunct system, the Mosaic law, are simply deceived.
But Christ spoke what you call the Mosaic Law. That WAS His Law.
So is there a sacrifice for sin today? The animal sacrifices NEVER purged sin...
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
They were the schoolmaster that pointed to Christ as the ultimate sacrifice.
OK, and? That is quite obvious. The point is sacrifice is not done away at all. If it is, then there is no sacrifice for sin and therefore no remission of sin...
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
This passage makes it very clear that the sprinkling of the blood of calves and goats was symbolic (again the schoolmaster to teach the lesson of the coming perfect sacrifice) of Christ's blood.
I have consistently stated this. Some of God's Law is fulfilled in Christ. We just saw that in the example above.
Some Laws are to practiced by us today. The Ten Commandments. Christ did not fulfill the sixth Commandment and make it unnecessary to keep it anymore did He? Or does it matter if you murder? (Christ says if you condemn your brother in your heart you are guilty.) He also said if you wish to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
Leaves us with the Temple Laws and the Levitical Laws. Are they done away? If one believes Christ...
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Then they are not. Can we keep them today? Is there a physical Temple today? No. Then those Laws cannot be practiced today. Here is a crude example (off the top of my head and not very refined)...
Should you stop at stop signs? Yes, always. Are they any stop signs on the interstate highways? No. Then do you stop on an interstate? No. If there were stop signs on the interstate, would you be required to stop? Yes. But there are none so you do not have to stop. Now substitute the Temple in the above example for interstates and the Temple Laws for stop signs.
Now if there was a Temple and a Levitical Priesthood operating on earth, should those Laws be obeyed? They are going to be in the Millenium! Ezek 40 through 48 makes this very clear. Why? I have wondered myself. Best understanding I can come to is that these people who live over into the Millenium will need a schoolmaster. Other than that, one has to wait and ask the Boss.
So is there a sacrifice for sin today? The animal sacrifices NEVER purged sin...
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
They were the schoolmaster that pointed to Christ as the ultimate sacrifice.
OK, and? That is quite obvious. The point is sacrifice is not done away at all. If it is, then there is no sacrifice for sin and therefore no remission of sin...
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
This passage makes it very clear that the sprinkling of the blood of calves and goats was symbolic (again the schoolmaster to teach the lesson of the coming perfect sacrifice) of Christ's blood.
I have consistently stated this. Some of God's Law is fulfilled in Christ. We just saw that in the example above.
Some Laws are to practiced by us today. The Ten Commandments. Christ did not fulfill the sixth Commandment and make it unnecessary to keep it anymore did He? Or does it matter if you murder? (Christ says if you condemn your brother in your heart you are guilty.) He also said if you wish to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
Leaves us with the Temple Laws and the Levitical Laws. Are they done away? If one believes Christ...
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Then they are not. Can we keep them today? Is there a physical Temple today? No. Then those Laws cannot be practiced today. Here is a crude example (off the top of my head and not very refined)...
Should you stop at stop signs? Yes, always. Are they any stop signs on the interstate highways? No. Then do you stop on an interstate? No. If there were stop signs on the interstate, would you be required to stop? Yes. But there are none so you do not have to stop. Now substitute the Temple in the above example for interstates and the Temple Laws for stop signs.
Now if there was a Temple and a Levitical Priesthood operating on earth, should those Laws be obeyed? They are going to be in the Millenium! Ezek 40 through 48 makes this very clear. Why? I have wondered myself. Best understanding I can come to is that these people who live over into the Millenium will need a schoolmaster. Other than that, one has to wait and ask the Boss.
N
He never mentioned God's health laws not once. What was mentioned was the traditions of the scribes and pharasees and the contamination of food, by not washing hands . That is why we need to follow the subject. and not add things into its that are not there,
Lets look at the whole chapter, and see if Christ once, or the Jew scribes & Pharisees once, mentioned God's laws here.
Mark 7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Where the disciples of Christ eating what God said not to eat ?Were they eating pigs, etc ? Or where they eating bread. What was the problem the Jews had ? What is with the fact that they ate their bread, without washing their hands. Or where the Jews getting on their case for not following God's health laws, because they were eating pork, or some other things God said not to eat ?
We clearly see the disciples of Christ simply eating bread. And the problem the Scribes and Pharisees had was Not, that they were not following God's law. They had a problem with them, because the disciples and Christ, where not following Their traditions of hand washing.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
What is the subject, what is the contention here they are having ? God's health laws are not even the subject here. The problem is the traditions of the Jews are not being followed. The traditions of the Jews, are not God's words.
The problem they had with the disciples of Christ, is they were eating " with unwashed hands " ... That has nothing to do with God's health laws. So lets not add God's health laws, to the subject, Because it is not the subject.
I'll post the rest of this in a new thread.
Lets look at the whole chapter, and see if Christ once, or the Jew scribes & Pharisees once, mentioned God's laws here.
Mark 7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
Where the disciples of Christ eating what God said not to eat ?Were they eating pigs, etc ? Or where they eating bread. What was the problem the Jews had ? What is with the fact that they ate their bread, without washing their hands. Or where the Jews getting on their case for not following God's health laws, because they were eating pork, or some other things God said not to eat ?
We clearly see the disciples of Christ simply eating bread. And the problem the Scribes and Pharisees had was Not, that they were not following God's law. They had a problem with them, because the disciples and Christ, where not following Their traditions of hand washing.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
What is the subject, what is the contention here they are having ? God's health laws are not even the subject here. The problem is the traditions of the Jews are not being followed. The traditions of the Jews, are not God's words.
The problem they had with the disciples of Christ, is they were eating " with unwashed hands " ... That has nothing to do with God's health laws. So lets not add God's health laws, to the subject, Because it is not the subject.
I'll post the rest of this in a new thread.
They were never to purge sin, they were a bloody reminder (Heb 10:3) that sin requires blood. Oh and I am not claiming anything, Ezekiel says this...
Eze 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
Eze 44:11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
You need to read Ezekiel 40 through 48 before forming an opinion. In the Millenium, Levites will again perform the service of God.
Eze 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
Eze 44:11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
You need to read Ezekiel 40 through 48 before forming an opinion. In the Millenium, Levites will again perform the service of God.
N
Here is the link to the rest of my post:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-study-ntoes-i-put-together.html#post1399962
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...e-study-ntoes-i-put-together.html#post1399962
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I so much wish I could make you understand that your teaching is harming the kingdom of God! You have so many wonderful truths, you are such a wonderful teacher in so many ways.
You learn and teach that using rituals "defunct system" you call what God taught Hebrews to use, instead of Christ is doing wrong. You teach Christ. If only you would stop there, but in the joy of learning a biblical truth you are adding to it to teach what isn't truth. So you are using what God gives us to live by as something to blind ourselves.
We are to know sin. We are to be obedient. We are to learn from all scripture. We are not to be extreme, so Pharisee like what we do is most important, we are not to be like 2014 interpretation teaches, that doing isn't important. The law that God gave, every bit of it, is to be learned. Every bit.
You learn and teach that using rituals "defunct system" you call what God taught Hebrews to use, instead of Christ is doing wrong. You teach Christ. If only you would stop there, but in the joy of learning a biblical truth you are adding to it to teach what isn't truth. So you are using what God gives us to live by as something to blind ourselves.
We are to know sin. We are to be obedient. We are to learn from all scripture. We are not to be extreme, so Pharisee like what we do is most important, we are not to be like 2014 interpretation teaches, that doing isn't important. The law that God gave, every bit of it, is to be learned. Every bit.
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By stating "God's health laws" you are asserting the Kosher dietary laws were for health only. This is not found in scripture. While the Kosher diet would be healthy as God would not prescribe an unhealthy diet, it is not the only reason.
All ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic laws, including Dietary restrictions point to Christ. This is why they are shadows of things to come.
All ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic laws, including Dietary restrictions point to Christ. This is why they are shadows of things to come.
D
John,
1) Why did the curtain separating the holy of hollies from the rest of temple rip when Christ died?
I believe it is because the temple is obsolete as we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit.
2) Why do you think the Temple was destroyed and never rebuilt for 2000 years?
I think it is because Christ was the fulfillment of the Mosaic law and esp. the sacrificial laws.
1) Why did the curtain separating the holy of hollies from the rest of temple rip when Christ died?
I believe it is because the temple is obsolete as we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit.
2) Why do you think the Temple was destroyed and never rebuilt for 2000 years?
I think it is because Christ was the fulfillment of the Mosaic law and esp. the sacrificial laws.
The Levitical priesthood is abolished, not the priesthood period, Yahshua is High Priest after the order of Melchizedek (malak zadiq).
Also fulfill...
Mattithyah 5:17, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."
Everything is not completely fulfilled *yet*
and then there is this:
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
maybe this makes more sense now?
Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I have not come to destroy them
Also fulfill...
Mattithyah 5:17, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."
Everything is not completely fulfilled *yet*
and then there is this:
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
maybe this makes more sense now?
Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the prophets; I have not come to destroy them
S
Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Romans 14:13-23 NASB
I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Romans 14:13-23 NASB
Thing is Yahweh the Creator of heaven and earth said certian things were unclean and therefore not food. It is not man's position to decide what permissible.
Is it possible that Shaul (Paul) is talking about non-Scriptual food laws? Say possibly pharisee type food laws?
Leviticus 11:43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am Yahweh your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground."
Is it possible that Shaul (Paul) is talking about non-Scriptual food laws? Say possibly pharisee type food laws?
Leviticus 11:43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am Yahweh your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground."