Trumps gonna win.

[Cameron143]

Paul said something along the lines that, by nature, the gentiles keep the law. Since Gentiles were never bound by the old covenant, then what is the significance of the new covenant incorporating them into Israel?

The new covenant is about being incorporated into Christ. Ethnic heritage placed every Jew in covenant with God and under the law. But within that population, there were those who, like Abraham, were related to God by faith as well, and who were recipients of the covenant of grace. In the time of Christ, this was a remnant in Israel who were used to spread the gospel.

 

[shittim]

@shittim Instead of giving the red x, why not provide the Bible verses, that is how you would prove this is not true.

This whole doctrine is completely debunked by the book of Revelation which was written n 95 AD. That obliterates the doctrine. The only way around that is to ignore all of the overwhelming evidence and make the baseless claim that it was written prior to 70 AD.

The proponents of this doctrine admit as much saying the evidence that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD is the doctrine, because if it is written after it debunks their doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

God keeps His promises, His word is always true.

 

[Cameron143]

that doctrine has no Biblical support, simply based human guesses

So God didn't fulfill the old covenant? He simply said He would sanction Israel for being unfaithful, but never followed through?
You are tied to an understanding of Revelation that ignores its true purpose. I understand how difficult it is to have viewed and been taught and studied to be reticent to see another perspective, but to say there is no biblical evidence is simply untrue.

 

[Cameron143]

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

We must all appear before the Judgement seat of Christ and unbelievers before the Great White throne. The law is the basis of that judgment. According to that law if you receive Jesus Christ as your sin offering He will be your righteousness.

The law is a direct reference to the law of Moses and in that law it tells you about sin offerings, trespass offerings and peace offerings. If you receive Jesus Christ He is your peace offering. But the judgment on those who have not received Him will not take place until the Great White throne.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Jesus did not do away with the Law, He fulfilled it.

You should study Isaiah 65 in this regard.

 

[Mem]

The new covenant is about being incorporated into Christ. Ethnic heritage placed every Jew in covenant with God and under the law. But within that population, there were those who, like Abraham, were related to God by faith as well, and who were recipients of the covenant of grace. In the time of Christ, this was a remnant in Israel who were used to spread the gospel.

The possibility that Job is reflective of the Jews occurred to me. All of his friend were basically telling him, 'You're done. Cooked.' But God...

 

[Squigglylines]

@shittim Instead of giving the red x, why not provide the Bible verses, that is how you would prove this is not true.

This whole doctrine is completely debunked by the book of Revelation which was written n 95 AD. That obliterates the doctrine. The only way around that is to ignore all of the overwhelming evidence and make the baseless claim that it was written prior to 70 AD.

The proponents of this doctrine admit as much saying the evidence that Revelation was written prior to 70 AD is the doctrine, because if it is written after it debunks their doctrine.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You might also add the warnings given to Timothy in 1 Timothy 1:20 and 2Timothy 2:17-18 written ad64-67 which was probably the inspiration behind 2 Thess. 2:1 and them being shaken in mind about it. Hymenaeus,Alexander and Philetus had began teaching that the resurrection of the dead had already occurred prior to that point in time. (gathering together unto him from 2 Thess.2:1), of which Paul uses strong language denouncing this teaching and their delivery over to Satan because of it. https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/1-20.htm

 

[Cameron143]

The possibility that Job is reflective of the Jews occurred to me. All of his friend were basically telling him, 'You're done. Cooked.' But God...

Job is a severe case of what all true Christians go through at some point. To me, it is the only way God can truly accomplish in Job and us what happens for Job in Job 42:5.

 

[Mem]

Job is a severe case of what all true Christians go through at some point. To me, it is the only way God can truly accomplish in Job and us what happens for Job in Job 42:5.

That his end was better than his beginning... In retrospect, I'm much more appreciative of my beginning than I had been while in it, so I guess if nothing else comes of it, there's that.

 

[ZNP]

God keeps His promises, His word is always true.

Yes, Jesus did not do away with the Law. That is what He said and that is true. God made an eternal covenant with Abraham, that is also true and God always keeps His promises. Granted, most of Abraham's children were not children of promise, but Isaac was.

 

[ZNP]

So God didn't fulfill the old covenant? He simply said He would sanction Israel for being unfaithful, but never followed through?
You are tied to an understanding of Revelation that ignores its true purpose. I understand how difficult it is to have viewed and been taught and studied to be reticent to see another perspective, but to say there is no biblical evidence is simply untrue.

God fulfilled the law, but He didn't do away with it. The law will be the basis for the Great White Throne judgment for those that do not receive Jesus as their peace offering with God. The Jews who do not receive that Jesus is the Messiah and died for their sins will be judged at the Great White Throne, that has not yet taken place, hence the covenant of the law is not yet ended.

 

[shittim]

In the meantime we are ALL required to make disciples, not debate stuff here or anywhere.
We must be at the work of the Kingdom.

 

[ZNP]

God fulfilled the law, but He didn't do away with it. The law will be the basis for the Great White Throne judgment for those that do not receive Jesus as their peace offering with God. The Jews who do not receive that Jesus is the Messiah and died for their sins will be judged at the Great White Throne, that has not yet taken place, hence the covenant of the law is not yet ended.

Galatians tells us the law leads us to Christ. So that means the law cannot end as a covenant before the gospel does.

Jesus was our sin offering according to the law. He was an atoning sacrifice, according to the Law. God no longer accepts the sacrifice of bulls and goats, but that doesn't mean the covenant is over, it means the covenant included the fact that God would provide a lamb as the atoning sacrifice. Once the sacrifice is made you can then receive it.

Daniel is very clear that it will take 70 weeks of years to fulfill the covenant. The 69th week ended with the cross of Christ. We still have one more week to go for this covenant. That is the seven year tribulation where the Jews will be forced to either receive Jesus or not.

In the Law of Moses it provides for a second Passover for those who were defiled by a dead body at the time of the first Passover. The Jews were defiled by the Jewish religion which officially rejected Jesus. That means they get a second chance. May 14, 1948 was seven days before the full moon which would have marked the day of the second Passover. Israel returning to the land is the beginning of this second chance to receive Jesus as the Messiah, which is also part of the Covenant that Moses made.

 

[ZNP]

In the meantime we are ALL required to make disciples, not debate stuff here or anywhere.
We must be at the work of the Kingdom.

You make claims, don't back them up, and then say we don't need to back them up? Whatever happened to being Bereans?

 

[Cameron143]

That his end was better than his beginning... In retrospect, I'm much more appreciative of my beginning than I had been while in it, so I guess if nothing else comes of it, there's that.

Job 42:5 Job declares that he had heard of God by the ear, but now his eyes see God. We know that Job didn't actually see God, so what was he saying? We get 80% of our sensory information through our eyes, 15% through our ears, and 5% through our other senses. Job is saying that God had magnified his understanding of Himself manifold times over. The hardships that Job endured were to vastly improve Job's relationship with God. He understood more of the knowledge of the glory of the Lord. This also multiplied Job's enjoyment and satisfaction in the Lord. God was different than Job imagined; but God was far greater than Job imagined.

 

[Cameron143]

God fulfilled the law, but He didn't do away with it. The law will be the basis for the Great White Throne judgment for those that do not receive Jesus as their peace offering with God. The Jews who do not receive that Jesus is the Messiah and died for their sins will be judged at the Great White Throne, that has not yet taken place, hence the covenant of the law is not yet ended.

Are you under the law?

 

[ZNP]

You should study Isaiah 65 in this regard.

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

This is quoted by Paul as evidence that the gospel would go to the Nations. Whenever the New Testament interprets the Old Testament we can take that as a sure word of interpretation.

2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; 3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; 4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; 5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

This also was interpreted by Paul. He said that the natural branches were broken off the tree and those that were wild olive branches were grafted in, referring to the nations and the gospel. Why were they broken off? He says they were broken off because of unbelief and he warns us to not be high minded but fear. If you look at these verses the Jews were high minded, that is why they were broken off, God says they were smoke in His nose. But Paul makes it clear that warning is just as much to Christians as it was to Jews.

6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, 7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Therefore since Paul applied the previous warning to Christians this warning also applies to us. The OSAS crowd should provide this warning to the congregation. You can be saved from Hell by the blood of Jesus. That does not mean that going forward if you are guilty of idolatry and blasphemy that God will not recompense you. You must continually repent of sins, continually be washed by the blood, and you must repent of them and come out from their midst and be separate.

8 Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

I would say the "new wine" is a direct reference to Pentecost and the start of the church. However, this verse applies it to Jews when He says "I may not destroy them all". The start of the church was not a destroying of any of the nations, rather it was the good news of Jesus Christ that we could be saved from our sins. However, at the same time it was a judgment on the corrupt Jewish leaders and their religion which had been filled with idolatry, arrogance and blasphemy (they said Jesus cast out demons by the prince of the demons).

9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Jacob is the one who is Israel. Jesus is the seed of Jacob, the name of the non transformed Israel. This word refers to a heel holder rather than a prince of God. This is a very clear reference to the covenant made with Abraham that his seed will inherit Israel and dwell there. This tells you that the covenant made to Abraham and to his seed is still going to be in effect at the end of the age.

10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

There are two different groups within those that call themselves Jews. Peter was a Jew, Paul was a Jew, and many more. They will be saved and Isaiah 65 is part of the Old Testament, this is not a New Testament promise but an Old Testament one to those Jews who do receive Jesus.

11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

But there are others like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected the Lord. Granted the Bible is clear, the majority of Jews do reject Jesus, but then the majority of Abraham's children were not Isaac. He was in the minority.

12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

That is a clear reference to 70 AD, it is also a clear reference to the various persecutions of Jews in Spain, Russia, Germany, etc.

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: 14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

This is a reference to the Jews who reject Jesus during the church age compared to the church. But the fact that during that time God is still dealing with them proves the covenant is not over.

15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Christians is that other name. This proves at some point in history the Jews will leave that name for a curse and those that truly serve Him will be called Christians. So yes, there is no future in being a Jew, but that again does not mean the covenant is over, because God is still speaking to them the path of salvation.

16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

This is talking about the millennial kingdom and eternity, so yes, in eternity and in the millennial kingdom the Jewish religion will have passed away, but we are not yet in the 7,000th year.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Once again the reference to Jerusalem means that God has not given up the eternal covenant made with both Abraham and David. Both of which are part of the Old Covenant.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Once again this is a reference to all the persecution and tribulation that the Jews have gone through and their sorrow being turned to joy. Yes, it can apply to Christians too, but this word in Isaiah is part of the Old Covenant telling Jews that after going through the tribulation they will have a place in the new heaven and new earth.

 

[ZNP]

Are you under the law?

Jesus Christ is my righteousness and that is 100% according to the Law. I am not righteous because of anything I did, but it was fully because of what He did, but again, the Law provides for someone else to pay for your ransom. So yes, when I appear before God and He judges me according to the Law I can claim the blood of Jesus and be clean 100% according to the law of God.

Jesus Christ is our Passover, that is according to the Law of Moses.

Jesus Christ is my trespass offering, my sin offering and my peace offering, that also is according to the Law of Moses.

Jesus Christ did not do away with the Law, He fulfills it.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

[Cameron143]

Isaiah 65:1 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

This is quoted by Paul as evidence that the gospel would go to the Nations. Whenever the New Testament interprets the Old Testament we can take that as a sure word of interpretation.

2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; 3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; 4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; 5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

This also was interpreted by Paul. He said that the natural branches were broken off the tree and those that were wild olive branches were grafted in, referring to the nations and the gospel. Why were they broken off? He says they were broken off because of unbelief and he warns us to not be high minded but fear. If you look at these verses the Jews were high minded, that is why they were broken off, God says they were smoke in His nose. But Paul makes it clear that warning is just as much to Christians as it was to Jews.

6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, 7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the Lord, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Therefore since Paul applied the previous warning to Christians this warning also applies to us. The OSAS crowd should provide this warning to the congregation. You can be saved from Hell by the blood of Jesus. That does not mean that going forward if you are guilty of idolatry and blasphemy that God will not recompense you. You must continually repent of sins, continually be washed by the blood, and you must repent of them and come out from their midst and be separate.

8 Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

I would say the "new wine" is a direct reference to Pentecost and the start of the church. However, this verse applies it to Jews when He says "I may not destroy them all". The start of the church was not a destroying of any of the nations, rather it was the good news of Jesus Christ that we could be saved from our sins. However, at the same time it was a judgment on the corrupt Jewish leaders and their religion which had been filled with idolatry, arrogance and blasphemy (they said Jesus cast out demons by the prince of the demons).

9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Jacob is the one who is Israel. Jesus is the seed of Jacob, the name of the non transformed Israel. This word refers to a heel holder rather than a prince of God. This is a very clear reference to the covenant made with Abraham that his seed will inherit Israel and dwell there. This tells you that the covenant made to Abraham and to his seed is still going to be in effect at the end of the age.

10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

There are two different groups within those that call themselves Jews. Peter was a Jew, Paul was a Jew, and many more. They will be saved and Isaiah 65 is part of the Old Testament, this is not a New Testament promise but an Old Testament one to those Jews who do receive Jesus.

11 But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

But there are others like the Pharisees and Sadducees who rejected the Lord. Granted the Bible is clear, the majority of Jews do reject Jesus, but then the majority of Abraham's children were not Isaac. He was in the minority.

12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

That is a clear reference to 70 AD, it is also a clear reference to the various persecutions of Jews in Spain, Russia, Germany, etc.

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: 14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

This is a reference to the Jews who reject Jesus during the church age compared to the church. But the fact that during that time God is still dealing with them proves the covenant is not over.

15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Christians is that other name. This proves at some point in history the Jews will leave that name for a curse and those that truly serve Him will be called Christians. So yes, there is no future in being a Jew, but that again does not mean the covenant is over, because God is still speaking to them the path of salvation.

16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

This is talking about the millennial kingdom and eternity, so yes, in eternity and in the millennial kingdom the Jewish religion will have passed away, but we are not yet in the 7,000th year.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Once again the reference to Jerusalem means that God has not given up the eternal covenant made with both Abraham and David. Both of which are part of the Old Covenant.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

Once again this is a reference to all the persecution and tribulation that the Jews have gone through and their sorrow being turned to joy. Yes, it can apply to Christians too, but this word in Isaiah is part of the Old Covenant telling Jews that after going through the tribulation they will have a place in the new heaven and new earth.

There is a lot here. Much of what is here is true. I hope to have time later to address a a few things.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus Christ is my righteousness and that is 100% according to the Law. I am not righteous because of anything I did, but it was fully because of what He did, but again, the Law provides for someone else to pay for your ransom. So yes, when I appear before God and He judges me according to the Law I can claim the blood of Jesus and be clean 100% according to the law of God.

Jesus Christ is our Passover, that is according to the Law of Moses.

Jesus Christ is my trespass offering, my sin offering and my peace offering, that also is according to the Law of Moses.

Jesus Christ did not do away with the Law, He fulfills it.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Christians are no longer under the law. They are in Christ and are no longer under condemnation. You may suffer chastening or lose eternal benefits as a result of your failure to keep the law by walking in the Spirit, but a Christian will not be judged as to his guilt before God concerning the law

 

[ZNP]

Christians are no longer under the law. They are in Christ and are no longer under condemnation. You may suffer chastening or lose eternal benefits as a result of your failure to keep the law by walking in the Spirit, but a Christian will not be judged as to his guilt before God concerning the law

Yes, but that is because Jesus paid our ransom according to the law.

As for Christians getting a blanket exemption from sin, that is only if they confess and repent of them. If you look at Moses' law it explains precisely how to offer up a trespass offering or a peace offering. Hebrews says that Jesus offered Himself up once for all, that doesn't mean that we only need to confess and repent once. It means that same sacrifice will be good for every time we need to confess and repent.

Some teach that if you confessed and repented 20 years ago you are good even if today you are living in sin. If you are living in sin it is evidence that there was no repentance. Hebrews is very clear about dogs returning to their vomit, Reuben pleading for an inheritance, and ground that is near a curse.