Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Cameron143

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did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?


Luke 10:

36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
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Sure, but this has nothing to do with the discussion I was in.
 

Rufus

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The problem with that is that man (ie. each individual) did not cause this self destructive behaviour, we have Adam to thank for that and he wasn't created with one so what was his excuse?

It also doesn't explain how Paul can desire to do what is right and good when in an unsaved state. Romans 7:15-20

If God had not entered that garden but rather had withdrawn Himself from humanity, then we all would be doomed (doctrine of Total Depravity) but God had made a promise to Himself before time began to give eternal life Titus 1:2 so He had a plan before He laid the foundation of the world. Rev.13:8

But the Lord God has never forsaken His creation, instead He meets us with the Gospel which is Christ who is grace and truth so we can respond freely. Some accept, some reject.
There is no problem. As you pointed out, "we have Adam to thank for that". After all, he was our appointed Federal Head; therefore, in a real sense the entire human race was in Adam's loins when he sinned and self-destructed.

And Rom 7 is describing Paul's Christian experience. No unregenerate person rejoices in God's Law. In fact, the lost hate God's law, hate spiritual knowledge, hate wisdom, hate understanding, hate God, hate his Son and love the Darkness!
 

Rufus

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They'll just tell us God is unfair to reveal Himself one way to one person and another way to someone else.

Where do Christians get off blaspheming God like that?

Ya gotta wonder.

And let us not forget that the FW claim is also for Him to act unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrannical
monster kidnapping people against their will. Just more blasphemy. But they call themselves Christian?
FWers don't believe the Potter hasn't any rights over his creation, in spite of what Paul taught. All the rights belong to his clay pots. The Potter exists to serve his pots. :rolleyes:
 
Mar 23, 2016
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sure what?

did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?




Cameron143 said:
but this has nothing to do with the discussion I was in.
??? ... you were discussing the parable for quite some time.
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Mar 23, 2016
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in a real sense the entire human race was in Adam's loins when he sinned and self-destructed.
was the entire human race in Adam's loins when God provided covering for Adam and Eve?

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

.
 

Rufus

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Analogies are good in fact many times they are awesome, maybe even Jesus stated some during His time on Earth, not every word was recorded.
Is that story about how people are saved?
Really how about that. :unsure:
It's a story about the nature of true love and how genuine, biblical agape love works. Love actively seeks the welfare of others. The Good Samaritan actually put his love into action through his compassion, mercy and grace by effectually ministering to the half-dead man. The Samaritan was truly a more righteous man than either the Father or Son since neither don't concretely/effectually save anyone. All they do is provide opportunities for people to save themselves through their choices. Clearly, the Good Samaritan's love was more precious than gold to the crime victim. But God's "agape" love???
 
Oct 19, 2024
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FWers don't believe the Potter hasn't any rights over his creation, in spite of what Paul taught. All the rights belong to his clay pots. The Potter exists to serve his pots. :rolleyes:
Romans 9 includes three overlapping TOP.

TOP #44: Although many Jews reject the Gospel/Christ, God’s covenant with Abraham did not fail, because the children of Abraham includes (spiritually circumcised) Gentiles. [Rom. 9:1-33, cf. TOP #24] In verses 1-5 Paul noted how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah (and are therefore not Abraham’s spiritual children). Paul explained that the reason Israelites are not saved is because they ignored God’s purpose in s/e or POS involving mercy (v.11-15) on those having faith in Christ (who is to be praised or glorified forever as God over all, amen) and instead pursued righteousness by works or obeying the law (v.30-33).

TOP #45: God has the power to determine what is required for salvation, and He is just to destroy those who resist His will. [Rom. 9:16-29] After noting (in verses 6-13) that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3) . The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

Paul cites Scripture (Exo. 10:1) saying that God hardened Pharoah’s heart for the purpose of revealing divine power, and then he notes (v.20-21) that a potter has the right to make pottery for various uses.

TOP #46: Those who reject God’s will/POS will experience His wrath and destruction. [Rom. 9:22-29] Sodom and Gomorrah are cited as examples, and Paul cited Isaiah saying (in Isa. 10:22-23) only a remnant of Israel would be saved.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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was the entire human race in Adam's loins when God provided covering for Adam and Eve?

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
.
Yup! Is not the penalty of sin death? If Adam's sin is not imputed to all men in the distributive sense, then how could God be just in "permitting" infants, babies, young children, etc., who have not attained to a true knowledge of good and evil, suffer that penalty by dying before they reach the age of accountability?

Also, just because God provided coverings for A&E does not in and of itself prove anything about their spiritual condition. Did both our first parents receive God's gracious coverings by faith? FWers (freewillers) here will tell you how much they loathe God's unilateral actions because if He acted in that way, this would be tantamount to Him tyrannically forcing his will upon his moral agents.

Do yourself a big favor: Read the post-Fall account in Genesis prayerfully, slowly and carefully and then get back to me and tell me if you can see in that narrative any evidence of faith on the part of Adam or Eve.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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sure what?

did the Lord Jesus Christ tell the lawyer he needed to be like ...

... the guy on the side of the road (vs 30)?

... the priest (vs 31)?

... the levite (vs 32)?

... the Samaritan (vss 33-35)?





??? ... you were discussing the parable for quite some time.
.
Yes, but only the estate of the individual who was beaten.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Romans 9 includes three overlapping TOP.

TOP #44: Although many Jews reject the Gospel/Christ, God’s covenant with Abraham did not fail, because the children of Abraham includes (spiritually circumcised) Gentiles. [Rom. 9:1-33, cf. TOP #24] In verses 1-5 Paul noted how sad it is that those who are part of the human ancestry of Christ reject him as Messiah (and are therefore not Abraham’s spiritual children). Paul explained that the reason Israelites are not saved is because they ignored God’s purpose in s/e or POS involving mercy (v.11-15) on those having faith in Christ (who is to be praised or glorified forever as God over all, amen) and instead pursued righteousness by works or obeying the law (v.30-33).

TOP #45: God has the power to determine what is required for salvation, and He is just to destroy those who resist His will. [Rom. 9:16-29] After noting (in verses 6-13) that God had chosen which one of Rebecca’s sons (through whom Messiah’s lineage would be traced) before they were born (cf. Mal. 1:2-3) . The word translated as “hate” (miseo) is the same as in Luke 14:26 with reference to family, so a better translation would be “preferred”: loving Jacob/hating Esau refers to God preferring that Jacob’s descendants serve as the heritage for Messiah rather than to individual salvation.

31. Romans 9:14-16 stresses that s/e depends on God’s mercy rather than being achieved by human effort (#12), although the preceding context has shown that (the non-meritorious condition of) faith is involved, which truth can be stated as “God initiates; sinners cooperate—or not”, because of MFW.

32. Romans 9:17 refers to pharaoh in Exodus 9:13-35 as an example of someone whom God allowed to oppose His will so that His power might be manifested by the plagues. The OT passage indicates that pharaoh was conscious of his sin but “He and his officials hardened their hearts” (v.34b).

Paul cites Scripture (Exo. 10:1) saying that God hardened Pharoah’s heart for the purpose of revealing divine power, and then he notes (v.20-21) that a potter has the right to make pottery for various uses.

TOP #46: Those who reject God’s will/POS will experience His wrath and destruction. [Rom. 9:22-29] Sodom and Gomorrah are cited as examples, and Paul cited Isaiah saying (in Isa. 10:22-23) only a remnant of Israel would be saved.
Pure rubbish. First, God didn't allow anything with Pharoah! God clearly decreed the king's reprobation (Ex 4:21) when He hardened his heart. And Rom 9 is not about messianic genealogy. Rather, it's about two different kinds of Jews within Israel, and who God sovereignly chose who would participate in the Abrahamic Covenant. Ishmael and Esau were never in a covenant relationship with God.
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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Matthew 16 verses 15-17 ~ What about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.
Uh, oh...God played favorites. He revealed something to Peter that He never did to the non-elect. But it gets even worse than that! Jesus chose Peter to be in covenant relationship with Him before Peter chose Him! That Jesus guy had a lot of chutzpah. Jesus obviously was not a big believer in being an EOE. :coffee:
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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The man was half dead and helpless. There is nothing in the story about him accepting help. You would have made an excellent mathematician with all the adding you do.
You mean...your version of the bible doesn't have the half-dead crime victim giving the Samaritan permission to save him?
 

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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So Jesus had to use half-truths.. the regeneration before belief comes later when they were ready.

Awesome mathing, never learned that in math class, I can work half the problem, only the left part of the equation and still get the right answer.

Who knew, maybe @cv5 can shed some light, I believe he has an engineering background?
A blind squirrel does indeed find the occasional chestnut. Have you never read:

John 16:12-13
12 "I have much more to say to you , more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come?

NIV
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Pure rubbish. First, God didn't allow anything with Pharoah! God clearly decreed the king's reprobation (Ex 4:21) when He hardened his heart. And Rom 9 is not about messianic genealogy. Rather, it's about two different kinds of Jews within Israel, and who God sovereignly chose who would participate in the Abrahamic Covenant. Ishmael and Esau were never in a covenant relationship with God.
You blame God for hardening Pharoah's heart, so such hardening was not a sin,
contradicting what Exo. 9:34 clearly says and calling it "rubbish"?

News flash: The Abrahamic Covenant is about messianic genealogy.