Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Everlasting-Grace]

Whether some like it or not Romans 8:7 attests that the mind governed by the flesh is
hostile to God, because it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7

I made it a little bigger because some people seem to be having quite a bit of difficulty seeing it.

Though really it is one of those Scriptural truths that people hate along with
so many others that are routinely ignored, contradicted, and outright denied.

good thing submitting to Gods law is not required to be saved.

Just admitting we can not submit or keep the law is required.. and then of course. receiving the gift of the cross.

 

[Magenta]

good thing submitting to Gods law is not required to be saved.

Just admitting we can not submit or keep the law is required.. and then of course. receiving the gift of the cross.

Do you even bother reading what I am responding to? It seems not.

But since it was specifically about believing, your response is totally wonky.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

 

[HeIsHere]

Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.

Belief does not come from an act of our will, this is correct.

No amount of volition will save either.
Yet, belief, does not come from God either.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Do you even bother reading what I am responding to? Probably not.

But since it was specifically about believing, your response is totally wonky.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8

Yes I did read it. and Yes. my comment still stands


You want God to be a God who is NOT a god of love. who send our wives, husbands and daughters and best friends to hell without even giving them an opportunity.

wlll you can have that God.

because i tell you right now. if people get to heaven, and are sad their loved ones are not there. and find Out God kept the truth from them, and did not even give them a chance.

mark my word. there will be another rebellion

 

[Magenta]

Maybe these free willers really do believe that the person without the Spirit of God is governed by
the Spirit of God. That would certainly explain why they refuse to accept that the unregenerated
man is blinded to the truth of the gospel while under the power and influence of the wicked one,
taken captive to do his will and unable to submit to God. Though it is true it makes absolutely
no sense, neither does much else of what they say in this regard, so it kind of fits.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Belief does not come from an act of our will, this is correct.

Yet it does not come from God either.

it is the wo0rk of God we believe.

now what does this mean

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe these free willers really do believe that the person without the Spirit of God is governed by the Spirit of God. That would certainly explain why they refuse to accept that the unregenerated man is blinded to the truth of the gospel while under the power and influence of the wicked one, and taken captive to do his will. Though it is true it makes absolutely no sense, neither does much else of hwat they say in this regard, so it kind of fits.

lol

do you have anything pertinent to say?

Is god not in control of all. does he not govern all?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Belief does not come from an act of our will, this is correct.

It does not?

Yet it does not come from God either.

then where does it come from?

 

[HeIsHere]

It does not?

then where does it come from?

Can you force yourself to believe something?

There is a point where people choose to accept the gift, but that comes after one has believed.
Belief is based on evidence.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes I did read it. and Yes. my comment still stands


You want God to be a God who is NOT a god of love. who send our wives, husbands and daughters and best friends to hell without even giving them an opportunity.

wlll you can have that God.

because i tell you right now. if people get to heaven, and are sad their loved ones are not there. and find Out God kept the truth from them, and did not even give them a chance.

mark my word. there will be another rebellion

That is correct, denied opportunity is a good way to put it.

 

[HeIsHere]

Good post!

Love the parallelism between receive and believe in John1:12. @cv5 has been explaining what "receive" means - to actively take something - human action just like believing - in response to God graciously giving.

Love the parallelism between believing and obeying in John3:36. Whether some like it or not, believing God is obeying God and, no, obedience is not a work, but the proper response to God from a volitional creature created by God. In part, when we get better and better at volitional obedience, He calls it love for Him and faith/obedience/love are all woven together.

Keep up the work with Scripture! Most of those who do actually oppose it will suddenly be ignoring what you say, while others of us will revel in it.

My experience is the harder you try the more you will fail.

 

[Magenta]

Yes I did read it. and Yes. my comment still stands

You want God to be a God who is NOT a god of love. who send our wives, husbands and daughters and best friends to hell without even giving them an opportunity.

wlll you can have that God.

because i tell you right now. if people get to heaven, and are sad their loved ones are not there. and find Out God kept the truth from them, and did not even give them a chance.

mark my word. there will be another rebellion

Not sure where you get your ideas of what I want in God. Perhaps you pull them out of your rear end. The lies you have
told in this post have nothing to do with anything I have said. Mark your words? Now what are you going on about?
Never mind. Your inability to deal with what is actually being said does not bode well for future interactions.
You have been like that ever since I first met you.

 

[HeIsHere]

Those who believed are the same as those who received. What do you have that you have not received? What did they receive? Could it have been faith?
Your error is that you believe receiving is something you do. Receiving doesn't necessitate any action on one's part. If you were honest you would have included John 1:13. It tells you how it was received: nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. Wonder why you left that out? Aren't you the one who dislikes single proof texts? Aren't you the one who espouses context, context, context? You literally ripped that verse out of it's context. And for all your mockery, you still didn't answer my questions.
You are getting as ridiculous as your cohorts.

That verse does not help your doctrine, you think you have any proof text to support your doctrine, you do not.

All of them have been systematically dismantled here and by the non-Calvinists apologist and they are doing a great job btw.

The amplified Bible has this:

who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].

Here, the natural [ie, biological] father is the husband of the wife who bares the child.

 

[Magenta]

All of them have been systematically dismantled here and by the non-Calvinists apologist and they are doing a great job btw.

Ah, so you do believe that the unregenerated person is governed by the Spirit of God. How odd. But what I suspected,
as just noted above, and of course like any of your other beliefs on this topic there is zero Scriptural support for it,
and actually contradicts the great many verses that speak to what and who the unregenerated are.

Ah, yes, despite all your pretenses to the contrary.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

someone needs to help those who believe that the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation is just not powerful enough to overcome the flesh.
.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Can you force yourself to believe something?

Its the work of God I believe

There is a point where people choose to accept the gift, but that comes after one has believed.
Belief is based on evidence.

I would call this repentance.

repentance is what leads one to in faith recieve Gods gift.

 

[HeIsHere]

Those who believed are the same as those who received. What do you have that you have not received? What did they receive? Could it have been faith?
Your error is that you believe receiving is something you do. Receiving doesn't necessitate any action on one's part. If you were honest you would have included John 1:13. It tells you how it was received: nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. Wonder why you left that out? Aren't you the one who dislikes single proof texts? Aren't you the one who espouses context, context, context? You literally ripped that verse out of it's context. And for all your mockery, you still didn't answer my questions.
You are getting as ridiculous as your cohorts.

You know what might be really disingenuous, forcing something into a text that is not there.

What isquite obvious from this context that the three points the apostle John lists here are in reference to the misconceptions of what Israelites perceived as their given covenantal “RIGHTS” as direct descendants of Abraham:

• not of blood = being a descendant or blood relative of Abraham (Rom. 9:7)
• nor of the will of the flesh = being one who “pursued” or “ran after” the law so as to merit righteousness (Rom. 9:31)
• nor of the will of man [husband’s will] = being married or in anyway connected to the patriarchal head

The apostle is knocking the legs out from under those Jews who think they have the RIGHT to be God’s child because of who their granddaddy is (blood), their law keeping efforts (fleshly running), or by patriarchal headship (husband’s will).

John is not attempting to make a soteriological stance on the nature of man’s free will or responsibility in light of the gospel appeal. However, in another passage Paul does teach us a little more about these matters,
L. Flowers.

NEXT!!

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That is correct, denied opportunity is a good way to put it.

this is the main fact that makes me despise reformed theology.

I believe they are my brothers and sisters.

But I hate the way they characterize God

 

[studier]

RE: John1:11-13

We can look at more context, but this is a start:

NKJ John 1:11-13:
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

• More literally, He came into His own things, and His own men/people did not receive Him
• "receive" is a compound word - thus an intensified version of the word @cv5 has been defining from Strong's. It means to "to take into close association, take (to oneself), take with/along" (BDAG Lexicon). It is an active voice verb so, Jesus' own people did not actively take Him into close association with themselves. They didn't take Him to themselves. This is a picture of [intense] rejection of Jesus Christ. It's interesting how this intensified word is used here intensifying their rejection. See why in the next verse.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

• Some of Jesus' own people did receive Him.
• "receive" is the non-intensified version of the word and my and @cv5 posts defining it are here. Some of Jesus' people did receive Him. This is also an active verb so some of Jesus' people did actively receive Him, take Him, even "choose" Him as the supplied Lexical definitions show, even though "choose" is not the primary meaning.
• This active "receive/take" is used in parallel with the also active verb "believe" so these two verbs are explaining one another, and John is thereby making clear that to actively receive is to actively believe.
• John interesting tells us that Jesus gave these active receivers/believers "the right - the authority - to become God's children. I won't take the time to define "children" here, but it has some very interesting meanings. This right/authority to become something needs to be carried into the next verse.

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

• The verb here being translated in the past tense is an aorist verb. The problem with the aorist verb translated into English is that it is timeless and must be translated based upon contextual markers. The contextual marker I see is "the right/authority to become (also aorist) God's children" which does not say He made them (past tense) God's children. So it's not just me saying this, here are some other translators dealing with this aorist verb and not seeing it as past tense:
  • NET John 1:13 – children not born by human parents or by human desire or a husband's decision, but by God.
  • NIV John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
  • NLT John 1:13 They are reborn-- not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God
• IMO The NET and the NIV are the best renditions of what the Text says. John1:13 does not tell us they were born but elaborates what they will become per John1:12. Jesus gave them the right/authority to become God's children, "born...from God".

These verses do not put rebirth before receipt and belief. They do just the opposite. Some actively received/believed in Jesus > Jesus gave them the right/authority to be born from God.

In context, the active receipt looks to be based upon the witness/testimony of John the Baptist:

NKJ John 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.​

​

Through the witness/testimony of John the Baptist receiving/believing in Jesus the Light the Logos/Word was made available to Jesus' own people.​

​

Some intensely did not receive Him through John's witness.​

​

Some received/believed in Him through John's witness.​

​

This is what we're told here.

 

[HeIsHere]

Its the work of God I believe


I would call this repentance.

repentance is what leads one to in faith recieve Gods gift.

Yes agree, for certain, that "turning away from and towards" is part of when we believe and receive God's gift.