Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Everlasting-Grace]

One of her general refrains is that God is unfair to do things the way He does. She does seem to feel
entitled to criticize God in this way. Do you think He finds it pleasing? I am inclined to think not.

it has nothing to do with God being unfair. it has to do with God being JUST.

The WAGE of sin is DEATH

if God gives someone the gift of life before the sin issue is resolved. God stops being a Just God

it also has to do with God being a God of love

God creating people for eternal hell without giving then even a remote possibility that they could be rescued. well. is that a God of love?

 

[Rufus]

it has nothing to do with God being faith. it has to do with God being JUST.

The WAGE of sin is DEATH

if God gives someone the gift of life before the sin issue is resolved. God stops being a Just God

So a perfect, holy, righteous and good God cannot dispense with HIS gift as he sees fit. Mankind deserves His gift? Or man has an inalienable right to His gift? Can you elaborate on what the judicial basis would be that would make God unfair or unrighteousness?

 

[cv5]

It's a specious argument. Even if one consents that receive means take, or appropriate for oneself, James teaches that receiving from God requires faith...James 1:5-7. You have people attaining faith with what? A faith they don't yet possess? If faith is not gifted first, how then can it be exercised to receive Christ?

[Act 26:14 NKJV]
"And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? [It is] hard for you to kick against the goads.'

 

[Rufus]

Jackson129 said:


Thats kind of a wonkey example to use of course how you are meaning it the shepherd is in control. He's God. But the example is flawed also cause if I have a pet sheep and call its name the silly thing might ignore me. Ever have a dog not listen let alone a cat haha.

And so what happens when a shepherd can't find one of his sheep due to its lack of response? Does he just give the sheep up for lost?

 

[Rufus]

Yes they do. you think I thought otherwise.. Thats another complaint I have, people following ISMS who think they know what everyone believes, when they do not have the slightest idea what many they argue with think, then make comments like this out of ignorance.

The point is they believed.. It is this repentance and faith that led them to get on their knees. KNOWING they were lost with no hope without Gods intervention.

Actually, it's God's efficacious grace that led them to their knees. Sinners do not believe by their own freewill choice but by the grace of God. Sinners do not purify their own hearts by their acts of faith, God does!

Also, what good is God's "intervention" since he only provides opportunities for people to save themselves. It's very clear that His "intervention" and "opportunities" result in the vast majority of mankind going to hell. But this is to be expected since FWers view God as merely a potential Savior.

 

[Rufus]

If God laid down judgment, that anyone who sins is dead (spiritual death)

then why would God lift his own judgment that he imposed himself. that would kind of defeat the purpose. Not to mention. he is the perfect judge correct. one we can trust? How can we trust a judge that goes back on his own judgment?


Because justification is the legal term for a person who is found innocent of all charges

the very charges that make one dead.

This is a legal issue.. thats the part reformed people do not understand

Redemption is the price Jesus paid. we are redeemed by the blood..

Paul tells us redemption c0omes through faith. the same faith of abrahm

Gal 3: 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

I mean it is simple logic.. (except for those who are not his who do not need yet to understand this) but people make it so difficult.. even people of God.. -

God does not go back on his own judgment since His Son paid the sin debt of all the Father's elect. But the spiritually dead have as much spiritual ability as the physically dead have physical ability. So...God must raise the dead in order for them to respond positively to His Son's atoning work.

 

[Rufus]

Does what?
Please be clear so I can respond with some precision.
Also, please explain the verses you post - what precisely in each verse means what you're saying it means.

What part of Jn 11:26 don't you get?

 

[Rufus]

I am affirming that if we repent and believe we will be saved

if we remain in unbelief we will remain condemned

But Gods grace is offered to all

NONSENSE! For I know you mean "all" in the distributive sense, which is easily refutable. Has God offered his saving grace to infants, babies, youngsters who have no true knowledge of good and evil and die before they attain to such knowledge? Where is God's grace in his decree to end the lives of millions of such people every year before they have an "opportunity" to be saved? What opportunities do such people get?

Or where was God's grace to "all" when the Holy Spirit forbade Paul and his fellow evangelists from going into Asia to preach the gospel (Act 16:6-7)? What opportunity did Asia get at that time?

 

[studier]

It's a specious argument. Even if one consents that receive means take, or appropriate for oneself, James teaches that receiving from God requires faith...James 1:5-7. You have people attaining faith with what? A faith they don't yet possess? If faith is not gifted first, how then can it be exercised to receive Christ?

So, do you accept the Strong's and BDAG Lexicon definitions?

The somewhat detailed look at John1:11-13 is specious (superficially plausible, but actually wrong) because:

• James1:5-7 teaches that receiving from God requires Faith.
  • Thus John1:12 see:
    • Receiving and believing differently than James?
    • The interpretation of receiving and believing parallel in the verse is wrong?
    • John and James are speaking of different things?
    • James disagrees with John?
    • Or ???

NKJ James 1:2-8 (paraphrasing in brief and including comparison of John1:11-13):
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,

• James addresses "brothers" which I take as fellow Christians.
• James is commanding/instructing Christians to deal with various testing with joy
• John is speaking of unbelievers:
  • Some intensely rejected Jesus
  • Some received/believed in Jesus
• James and John are speaking of different things

3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

• James continues his command/instruction to fellow Christians by providing a reason for it
• "knowing" is connected to the command in James1:2 - regard it all joy...knowing that testing accomplishes/produces [by work] endurance - spiritual growth
• In effect, Christians are commanded how to handle tests knowing what they're for - they have a purpose - a goal.

4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

• James issues another command to fellow Christians - "and the endurance is to have complete/perfect work" for this purpose/goal: so, you fellow Christians may be complete/perfect and whole, lacking in nothing.
• So, James is commanding/instructing fellow Christians how to regard and deal with testing for endurance in spiritual growth to the goal of completion/perfection and wholeness / lacking nothing
• John 1:12 is speaking about unbelievers first receiving/believing in Jesus Christ.
• Again, James and John are speaking of different things

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

• In the context of handling tests for endurance in spiritual growth to the goal of completion, James again commands fellow Christians to ask God for wisdom [in testing] and assures them that the God who gives to all straightforwardly/simply/openly and doesn't demean/reprimand will also give to him [the one asking for wisdom in tests]
• So here begins our first verse substantiating that my explanation for John1:11-13 was specious meaning superficially plausible, but actually wrong.
• So far, it's evident that James and John are not speaking about the same thing.
  • John is talking about unbelievers in Jesus Christ actively receiving/taking/believing in Jesus Christ
  • James is talking about believer in Jesus Christ handling testing asking God for wisdom for spiritual growth

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

• James has just command fellow Christians to ask God for wisdom in tests for spiritual growth
• James still in this same context, issues another command to his fellow Christians to ask God in faith not being uncertain/being at odds with oneself/doubting/wavering
• So, James is commanding Christians/believers/people with faith in God to ask God in faith for wisdom in testing for endurance in spiritual growth not doubting God will provide such wisdom for such purpose.
• James explains what a doubting Christian is like.

7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

• James issues another command to fellow Christians in the context of asking God for wisdom in testing
• Interestingly we encounter our word "receive/take again". Note that the doubting Christian is commanded not to think he will receive anything from the Lord.
• This use of the word "receive" is different than in John1:12 active voice. It's what's known as the middle voice and looks to be what's called the middle/passive. Basically, what John is saying is that the Christian doubting God in this context is not going to be receiving/taking anything because the Lord is not going to be giving it. Please note:
  • This is not at all about the Lord withholding or giving faith.
  • This is about the Lord withholding wisdom in tests for Christians doubting God will give such wisdom.
  • The importance of the difference between John1 dealing with unbelievers vs. James1 dealing with believers.
  • The concept that unbelievers can actively receive/take/believe the Lord Jesus Christ in John1 because God is actively giving Him not withholding Him.

8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

So:

• This is not at all about God giving or men receiving faith
• This does nothing to prove the basic provided analysis of John1:11-13 "specious"
• This is dealing with believers who have faith in Jesus Christ
• This is not dealing with unbelievers actively receiving/believing in Jesus Christ
• The idiom apples vs. oranges comes to mind
• What this does do is provide insight that unbelievers can actively respond to God and receive/take/believe what He is giving and not witholding.

 

[Rufus]

FWers, here's a another question I have for you re the Shepherd-Sheep metaphor: Do you think sheep are near the top or near the bottom of the food chain?

 

[studier]

But this verse does:

John 11:26
26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
NIV

See also Jn 4:14 and 3:1-14.

Sinners do NOT qualify themselves by "receiving/accepting/believing" the gospel (Col 1:12).

"But this verse does" - This verse does what to contrast or prove wrong or ??? what I posted?

What's your point?

 

[studier]

FWers, here's a another question I have for you re the Shepherd-Sheep metaphor: Do you think sheep are near the top or near the bottom of the food chain?

Do you think lowly of the Lamb of God?

 

[Rufus]

"But this verse does" - This verse does what to contrast or prove wrong or ??? what I posted?

What's your point?

That [spiritual] life precedes faith? What a wild and crazy idea, heh? Also brush up on Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus.

 

[Rufus]

Do you think lowly of the Lamb of God?

Do you know what the Lamb of God always did at all times in all circumstances and why he was loved by the Father?

 

[studier]

Do you know what the Lamb of God always did at all times in all circumstances?

Good recovery. Asking another question.

Do you have a problem with Jesus being portrayed as a young sheep?

I know sheep are good at things like following, recognizing, and responding and the Shepherd is good at leading and protecting and nurturing. Seems like a good relationship.

Moving on.

 

[Jackson129]

NONSENSE! For I know you mean "all" in the distributive sense, which is easily refutable. Has God offered his saving grace to infants, babies, youngsters who have no true knowledge of good and evil and die before they attain to such knowledge? Where is God's grace in his decree to end the lives of millions of such people every year before they have an "opportunity" to be saved? What opportunities do such people get?

Or where was God's grace to "all" when the Holy Spirit forbade Paul and his fellow evangelists from going into Asia to preach the gospel (Act 16:6-7)? What opportunity did Asia get at that time?

Since you bring up this infant thing. What about the baby David had with bathshedba? The one that died? David' showed he knew the Lord would love and care for the baby In 2 Samuel 12-23

 

[studier]

That [spiritual] life precedes faith? What a wild and crazy idea, heh? Also brush up on Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus.

I've no idea what you're off to and not going to spend time trying to figure it out.

I'm also not going to take up any lengthy discussions unless you'll explain Scripture in detail so we can analyze how and why you think it means something.

 

[sawdust]

We simply believe something. If I say God is good, you either believe the statement or not. You don't choose to believe or not believe by an act of volition. The belief is present or it isn't.
The same thing is true when the gospel is shared. We hear it and either believe or do not believe. We don't say to ourselves...should I believe or not? What choice should I make? I choose...
We are commanded to believe, but no where does scripture say we are to choose to believe. Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.

Faith comes by the word of God. If volition has no place in our lives for deciding what we will believe or not, why bother with it?

You said earlier that you don't see our believing and faith as the same thing yet, here you are again, speaking as if they are the same thing.

To be honest, I find your words inconsistent and therefore difficult to find any value in them.

Whether one is aware they are making a choice or not is irrelevant. The fact remains there are two options, two paths one can take when presented with the truth and that requires a choice and we make choices with our will.

I think we have exhausted our discussion don"t you?

be at peace brother.

 

[Magenta]

Do you have a problem with Jesus being portrayed as a young sheep?

You certainly had a problem with the question as it was asked, which CLEARLY was not referring to Jesus as a Lamb.

Good recovery. Asking another question.

You responded with a question. Are you really so blind to your hypocrisy?

 

[Rufus]

Good recovery. Asking another question.

Do you have a problem with Jesus being portrayed as a young sheep?

I know sheep are good at things like following, recognizing, and responding and the Shepherd is good at leading and protecting and nurturing. Seems like a good relationship.

Moving on.

But at the same time, there are many other things that sheep do not excel at. The biggie is that, UNLIKE the Lamb of God, sheep are most prone to stray and lose their way. And when they stray, they often get lost. And when they get lost they are most vulnerable to danger; for sheep are dim-witted, slow-footed and vulnerable to attack by predators. In short, sheep are pretty helpless little beasties. (This is the operative term.) Sheep would not survive very long without a loving Shepherd's leading, protection and nurturing. Their very existence depends upon the care the Shepherd gives them.

Could David in Ps 23 have said with such confidence that " [the Shepherd's] goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever"?