Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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I suppose the antediluvians were so wicked because they had a nurturing problem, too, heh? Their every inclination and thoughts of their hearts were wicked continually and they filled the earth with violence.
The reason the Israelites "learned evil" that became so ingrained in them was due to their inherently evil hearts! Any child reading the bible can tell you that; for the ancient Israelites were certainly influenced by the pagan nations around them. But they were influenced because that was the inclination of their hearts to begin with. Their rebellious hearts and hostility towards God began at the Exodus and continued throughout all their days. How come they just couldn't exercise their "freewill" to shun evil and sinful influences altogether?
The reason the Israelites "learned evil" that became so ingrained in them was due to their inherently evil hearts! Any child reading the bible can tell you that; for the ancient Israelites were certainly influenced by the pagan nations around them. But they were influenced because that was the inclination of their hearts to begin with. Their rebellious hearts and hostility towards God began at the Exodus and continued throughout all their days. How come they just couldn't exercise their "freewill" to shun evil and sinful influences altogether?
Correct. Jeremiah 13 is chock full of free will, volition, choices and consequences.
And super-determinists take note: the wayward Israelites knew exactly what they were doing in sinning against the command of YHVH and were without excuse.
[Jer 13:10 KJV]
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
[Jer 13:11 KJV] 11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Note the cynicism and WILLFUL rebellion noted here:
[Jer 13:12 KJV] 12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
And yes, another swing and a miss for the super-determinists. This is to be expected as their views are contrary to Biblical truth.
And super-determinists take note: the wayward Israelites knew exactly what they were doing in sinning against the command of YHVH and were without excuse.
[Jer 13:10 KJV]
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
[Jer 13:11 KJV] 11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Note the cynicism and WILLFUL rebellion noted here:
[Jer 13:12 KJV] 12 Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
And yes, another swing and a miss for the super-determinists. This is to be expected as their views are contrary to Biblical truth.
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Was there an Enoch? Was there a Noah? Were there people with Faith at least from Abel onward according to NC teachings? Was there a Remnant? Of course there were. In this sense there are two parallel stories coming through the Text.
Your use of Jer13 ignores context as does this response.
Your use of Jer13 ignores context as does this response.
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One of the most lame-brained, ill-conceived rebuttal attempts to Unconditional Election is that if God sovereignly chose people to save in eternity this would make Him unjust, unrighteous and unfair. FWers are stuck on this stupid idea that God is this cosmic version of EOE (Equal Opportunity Employer). Yet, what does Natural Revelation tell us in this regard? Does reality, as we all know it to be, comport with FWers' simple-minded complaint? Here are a few rhetorical questions for everyone's consideration. Just bear in mind that Natural Revelation is the mirror image of God's Special Revelation!
Does everyone come into this world as equally good looking, handsome, cute or attractive people? Does everyone come into this world endowed with the same degree of intelligence? Does everyone come into this world born healthy or free from life-long handicaps? Does everyone live a long life? Does everyone come into this world with the same financial status? Does everyone receive the same quality of education as eveyone else? Does everyone come into this world having caring, loving parents? Does everyone come into this world having faithful, believing parents? Was everyone born or raised in a country with as many freedoms as a handful of nations have, etc.? If any of you FWers are capable of coming up with the right answer to each question, then to be consistent with yourself, you'd have to characterize God as unrighteous, unjust and unfair because not all people were predesitined to have a high quality life in any sense of the phrase "high quality".
Of course, Special Revelation bears this truth out. Whether anyone cares to believe it or not, God did not treat Adam the same way He treated Eve. Nor did He treat Ishmael and Issac equally. Neither did he with Jacob and Esau. Nor the nations of the world for that matter. But I'm still not finished. The best follows!
On the Day of the Lord when this age ends and the eternal New Order begins for the saints, will everyone have been treated equally by Christ on Judgment Day? No! There will most certainly be different classses of saints since everyone will be rewarded for their own good deeds, or suffer loss of rewards for their own personal wrongdoings. Just as there is a hierarchy of angels in heaven, so too, there will be a heirarchy of saints, as well. (Even Jesus did not deny this fact!) God is not a left-leaning communist that ever had the notion of one-size-fits-all! God isn't a DIE (which I prefer to DEI) kinda person.
Does everyone come into this world as equally good looking, handsome, cute or attractive people? Does everyone come into this world endowed with the same degree of intelligence? Does everyone come into this world born healthy or free from life-long handicaps? Does everyone live a long life? Does everyone come into this world with the same financial status? Does everyone receive the same quality of education as eveyone else? Does everyone come into this world having caring, loving parents? Does everyone come into this world having faithful, believing parents? Was everyone born or raised in a country with as many freedoms as a handful of nations have, etc.? If any of you FWers are capable of coming up with the right answer to each question, then to be consistent with yourself, you'd have to characterize God as unrighteous, unjust and unfair because not all people were predesitined to have a high quality life in any sense of the phrase "high quality".
Of course, Special Revelation bears this truth out. Whether anyone cares to believe it or not, God did not treat Adam the same way He treated Eve. Nor did He treat Ishmael and Issac equally. Neither did he with Jacob and Esau. Nor the nations of the world for that matter. But I'm still not finished. The best follows!
On the Day of the Lord when this age ends and the eternal New Order begins for the saints, will everyone have been treated equally by Christ on Judgment Day? No! There will most certainly be different classses of saints since everyone will be rewarded for their own good deeds, or suffer loss of rewards for their own personal wrongdoings. Just as there is a hierarchy of angels in heaven, so too, there will be a heirarchy of saints, as well. (Even Jesus did not deny this fact!) God is not a left-leaning communist that ever had the notion of one-size-fits-all! God isn't a DIE (which I prefer to DEI) kinda person.
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And they would equal a very tiny remnant, wouldn't they? And they were all saved by God's grace.
And your lame interpretation of Jer 13:23 begs the question big time. Israel didn't have a mere mental lapse problem, nor were they merely naive. Their hearts were utterly and inherently wicked, so it would have been perfectly natural for them to seek out the pagan version of Darkness. Israel didn't have a mere will problem. They had a huge HEART (personality) problem, which is one of the big reasons behind the unconditional New Covenant.
How's that for biblical context?
And your lame interpretation of Jer 13:23 begs the question big time. Israel didn't have a mere mental lapse problem, nor were they merely naive. Their hearts were utterly and inherently wicked, so it would have been perfectly natural for them to seek out the pagan version of Darkness. Israel didn't have a mere will problem. They had a huge HEART (personality) problem, which is one of the big reasons behind the unconditional New Covenant.
How's that for biblical context?
OK, yields in the sense of produces I assume.
To keep this tight, Rom10 does say the Gospel yields/produces hearing. Rom10 says (you can see this if you use an interlinear or such tool):
BYZ Romans 10:17 Ἄρα (therefore) ἡ πίστις (the faith) ἐξ (from) ἀκοῆς (noun - [a] thing heard), ἡ (the) δὲ (and) ἀκοὴ (noun - [the] thing heard) διὰ (through) ῥήματος (something said, [a] spoken word/statement), θεοῦ. ([of] God)
With a little objective work this can be clear.
The Faith is specifying the faith being discussed - ultimately faith/belief in Jesus Christ
Faith in Jesus Christ is from [a] thing heard - "from" speaks of result (important for your "yield" wording) - a thing heard is a message (which will be clarified as the verse proceeds)
The thing heard is being specific again to tighten up "[a} thing/message heard" previously stated.
Through [a] spoken word/statement of/from God - the [of] is a basic translational insertion - in this case I see it as speaking of source - God is the source of the spoken word.
So, given all the context and the actual wording:
If we go back to Rom10:14 to pick up the hearing it's important to note not just hearing the Gospel, but also the specific statement re: hearing of/about Jesus Christ which is in the content of the Gospel. Paul is very simply saying we need to hear about Jesus Christ to believe in Jesus Christ.
It would be nice to get to complete accuracy to be rid of endless arguments.
To keep this tight, Rom10 does say the Gospel yields/produces hearing. Rom10 says (you can see this if you use an interlinear or such tool):
BYZ Romans 10:17 Ἄρα (therefore) ἡ πίστις (the faith) ἐξ (from) ἀκοῆς (noun - [a] thing heard), ἡ (the) δὲ (and) ἀκοὴ (noun - [the] thing heard) διὰ (through) ῥήματος (something said, [a] spoken word/statement), θεοῦ. ([of] God)
With a little objective work this can be clear.
The Faith is specifying the faith being discussed - ultimately faith/belief in Jesus Christ
Faith in Jesus Christ is from [a] thing heard - "from" speaks of result (important for your "yield" wording) - a thing heard is a message (which will be clarified as the verse proceeds)
The thing heard is being specific again to tighten up "[a} thing/message heard" previously stated.
Through [a] spoken word/statement of/from God - the [of] is a basic translational insertion - in this case I see it as speaking of source - God is the source of the spoken word.
So, given all the context and the actual wording:
- The thing heard is God's Gospel
- That little word ἐξ (ek - from) is telling us God's [specific] Gospel results in (yields/produces/) [the specific] faith in Jesus Christ - not hearing
If we go back to Rom10:14 to pick up the hearing it's important to note not just hearing the Gospel, but also the specific statement re: hearing of/about Jesus Christ which is in the content of the Gospel. Paul is very simply saying we need to hear about Jesus Christ to believe in Jesus Christ.
It would be nice to get to complete accuracy to be rid of endless arguments.
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In Heaven there will be people who were ugly and pretty on earth because they chose to accept God's gracious new covenant cleansing of their leopard spots and skin. I wonder if there will be pretty and ugly in resurrection bodies. Or since all things will be new and the old passed away, I wonder if there will even be such a thing as ugly or pretty. Is ugly, sin? Or is pretty, sin? Are they just judgments? Maybe we'll all be invisible so we can be naked and not ashamed. But then since Adam and Eve were clothed by God maybe we'll all just be clothed by God and I recall reading about white robes. God's quite a magnificent colorful artist - will we be able to choose different color robes? Didn't Joeseph have a multicolored robe? Will He be dictating everything since He dictated who would be in Heaven. Is that what we're headed for? Maybe choice is an illusion. Thanks @Rufus. You've really got me thinking about choices and what this is all about.
exactly ... why some claim it is some sort of work to receive that which God graciously gifts to mankind is beyond me ... and don't even get me started on whether faith on the part of mankind is "works" ... Romans 4 makes abundantly clear that faith ≠ works.
hope/pray all is well with you fredoheaven
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hope/pray all is well with you fredoheaven
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yeah ... for the most part, Scripture is straight forward. There are times, though, when I am reading and a word or a phrase just catches my eye ... and I want to do that deeper dive concerning the word or phrase. That's just me, though ... and it's not every time I read Scripture that results in the desire to go deeper.
Early on in my walk with the Lord, I came across these verses in Psalm 12:
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
These verses gave me great comfort. I knew little of Scripture, but what I did know, I kept in my heart and brought it to mind as situations came up.
No one knows all of Scripture ... doesn't matter how old we are or how long we've been studying Scripture ... there's always more to know ... whatever amount of Scripture we know, the words are pure, the words are true, the words of Scripture are kept and preserved by God for all generations. We can trust what we know in Scripture, hold to it, stand firm upon it and trust that God will keep that Word that He promised to us.
yes, I understand, and I would appreciate it if you would consider that my objective is to bring my understanding into alignment to God's Word ... my objective is not to bring God's Word into alignment with my understanding.
As I stated in my prior post, sometimes in the English (which was translated from the Greek), we have one English word, but there may be different Greek words which were translated into the English. It's okay to look at the Greek to see which Greek word was translated into English.
I quoted John 3:16 and asked what Greek word was translated "loved" in John 3:16. The word "loved" is translated from the Greek word agapaō as opposed to phileo or eros or storge ... and maybe it doesn't matter to some that there are different words which are translated into the English word, but sometimes it really does matter. The Author of Scripture was exact in His usage of each word.
Here's another couple of verses using the word "love" ... Jesus instructing Peter after Jesus was resurrected and before He ascended into heaven:
John 21:
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
The Lord Jesus Christ asked Peter two times if Peter loved [Greek = agapaō] Him ... and one time Jesus asked Peter if he loved [Greek = phileō] Him.
Peter responded three times that he loved [Greek = phileō] Him.
Does it matter ?
If it does matter ... what is going on in these verses?
If it doesn't matter ... no point in delving deeper.
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Early on in my walk with the Lord, I came across these verses in Psalm 12:
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
These verses gave me great comfort. I knew little of Scripture, but what I did know, I kept in my heart and brought it to mind as situations came up.
No one knows all of Scripture ... doesn't matter how old we are or how long we've been studying Scripture ... there's always more to know ... whatever amount of Scripture we know, the words are pure, the words are true, the words of Scripture are kept and preserved by God for all generations. We can trust what we know in Scripture, hold to it, stand firm upon it and trust that God will keep that Word that He promised to us.
yes, I understand, and I would appreciate it if you would consider that my objective is to bring my understanding into alignment to God's Word ... my objective is not to bring God's Word into alignment with my understanding.
As I stated in my prior post, sometimes in the English (which was translated from the Greek), we have one English word, but there may be different Greek words which were translated into the English. It's okay to look at the Greek to see which Greek word was translated into English.
I quoted John 3:16 and asked what Greek word was translated "loved" in John 3:16. The word "loved" is translated from the Greek word agapaō as opposed to phileo or eros or storge ... and maybe it doesn't matter to some that there are different words which are translated into the English word, but sometimes it really does matter. The Author of Scripture was exact in His usage of each word.
Here's another couple of verses using the word "love" ... Jesus instructing Peter after Jesus was resurrected and before He ascended into heaven:
John 21:
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
The Lord Jesus Christ asked Peter two times if Peter loved [Greek = agapaō] Him ... and one time Jesus asked Peter if he loved [Greek = phileō] Him.
Peter responded three times that he loved [Greek = phileō] Him.
Does it matter ?
If it does matter ... what is going on in these verses?
If it doesn't matter ... no point in delving deeper.
.