Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Yes, it is my contention, and I expect disagreement, especially around here, while also seeing agreement in some here.
I contend that everything I said is baked into the verse because I view belief in God and His message as ultimately a choice because it results from a path where many choices are made to arrive at the point of being convinced by God that God and His Message/Faith about Jesus His Christ is Truth.
I also contend that the answer to your questions about God's Word accomplishing God's purpose was answered by what I said. God's Message with its power is willfully accepted or rejected. Either way God's purpose is accomplished.
I contend that everything I said is baked into the verse because I view belief in God and His message as ultimately a choice because it results from a path where many choices are made to arrive at the point of being convinced by God that God and His Message/Faith about Jesus His Christ is Truth.
I also contend that the answer to your questions about God's Word accomplishing God's purpose was answered by what I said. God's Message with its power is willfully accepted or rejected. Either way God's purpose is accomplished.
Well thanks for at least dealing with my actual questions. The answer to the first question is simply...yes. God declares this to be the case. The answer to the second question is also simply yes because the answer to the first question is yes, and the question is just a rewording of the first question. It's worth noting that no mention is made of man's free will, or man at all, in the passage, but what God says is true of Himself and His actions. Your inclusion of man has no relationship to the passage, and reflects your bias and not the meaning of the passage. Your third answer never addresses the question. The answer is it was withheld. Had it been manifested, the result would be belief as per Romans 1:16.
@Lamar said yesterday that people were talking past each other. He was right. And your answer reveals in part why this is so. People ask questions that others don't answer, or answer in ways that never deal with the actual question.
@Lamar said yesterday that people were talking past each other. He was right. And your answer reveals in part why this is so. People ask questions that others don't answer, or answer in ways that never deal with the actual question.
You didn't actually answer the questions, despite your contention. And you are free to believe as you wish. But had you actually answered the questions, you would not be able to insert man into the conversation because the passage is about God. So is Romans 1:16. Clearly the power of God in the gospel has been made manifest to believers. No such claim has been made for unbelievers. Neither is there any mention of the application of man's will. It must be assumed into the passage.
Oh my...it appears I overestimated you and gave you too much credit. You didn't know
that the godly disposition of heart known as the Fear of the Lord is a divine gift, did you?
I bet you thought that was just another "theory" I cooked up....
that the godly disposition of heart known as the Fear of the Lord is a divine gift, did you?
I bet you thought that was just another "theory" I cooked up....
Adam sinned even though according to Scripture everything changed.
Yes. No free will, no overcoming.
And note that indeed, our actionable free will DOES IN FACT elicit a free will response from God Himself.
Note the TIME sequence: we WILL, and then God *****WILL**** .....commit to bless us.
[Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 26 KJV]
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. ...
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. ...
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]. ...
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[Rev 3:5, 12, 21 KJV]
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ...
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name. ... 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[Rev 21:7 KJV] 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
And note that indeed, our actionable free will DOES IN FACT elicit a free will response from God Himself.
Note the TIME sequence: we WILL, and then God *****WILL**** .....commit to bless us.
[Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 26 KJV]
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. ...
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. ...
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth [it]. ...
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
[Rev 3:5, 12, 21 KJV]
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. ...
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name. ... 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
[Rev 21:7 KJV] 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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Oh look....another debunked super-determinist shibboleth.
These verses DO NOT declare "total depravity". They declare that God CAN and WILL judge the heart that sins because only He can KNOW it. These are JUDGEMENT passages....SE the chapter for context regarding the WILLFUL sins of Israel.
[Jer 17:9-10 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can KNOW it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
These verses DO NOT declare "total depravity". They declare that God CAN and WILL judge the heart that sins because only He can KNOW it. These are JUDGEMENT passages....SE the chapter for context regarding the WILLFUL sins of Israel.
[Jer 17:9-10 KJV]
9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can KNOW it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, [and] according to the fruit of his doings.
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You're dead wrong! When I make the claim (expressed negatively) that Adam was NOT included in God's Reconciliation decree in Gen 3:5, and that there is NO biblical evidence whatsoever to support he exercised any faith, I'm arguing from FACTS since there are no passages to refute my negative claims. But this is not an argument from silence because I'm basing my negative claim on the FACTS of the positive evidence for Eve, for which such facts are totally absent for Adam. Therefore, this absence of evidence does in fact support my claim! The absence is "scriptural support"; for stark contrasts actually do exist in the biblical text between A&E !
Conversely, an argument from silence is when people base their belief on some imagined or fictional hypothesis that have no basis in textual facts . For example, if I said, "The post-fall scripture narrative doesn't say that Adam rejected God's atoning provision didn't save continued in his unbelief after he sinned", this would be an argument from silence since Scripture does explicitly tell us that God reconciled Eve unto himself and she exercised faith subsequent to her reconciliation. Therefore, the exegetical observation I make about Adam is legitimate. It's legitimate to ask, "Why isn't there positive evidence for Adam as there is for Eve?" The whole point to exegesis is to extract from the text what is explicitly stated or logically implied in the text.
And the fact that neither A or E outwardly rejected God's coverings does not necessarily speak to what was in their heart. After all, A&E FEARED God (and his impending judgment), for after they sinned they ran and hid from Him. The only thing they had in mind was to distance themselves from Him. Adam, in his fear, was not likely to be openly defiant towards the being who created him; but that doesn't necessarily translate into him sporting an equally compliant heart. Sin in its essence is deceitful! Adam paid "lip service" to God by donning the coverings God provided but this doesn't mean that he had a sincere, repenting, believing heart for or toward Him. For your info, the entire planet is filled with HYPOCRITES! It's one of the pernicious effects of sin!
Finally, if we take your lame objection about the "sufficiency" of God's atoning provision to its logical conclusion, then we'd have to logically conclude that Christ's atoning sacrifice on the Cross was a HUGE NOTHINGBURGER, since FWers tell us that He died for all men w/o exception, yet only a small remnant is actually being saved. Christ utterly failed to save each and every person in the world, even though FWers allege that was his mission according to Jn 3:17. His work clearly didn't cut it. It was not sufficient, going by your logic. If we go the by numbers, Christ's Cross work was an epic fail!
As stated earlier, appealing only to one track of salvation (the Savior's Provision) does not and cannot tell the entire story since there is a second track: Sinners' Response. We have Eve's Response of faith and we know God reconciled her to Himself when He decreed enmity between the devil and herself. So get busy and tell us to whose seed does Adam belong and provide textual evidence that he exercised faith, as Eve did.
Conversely, an argument from silence is when people base their belief on some imagined or fictional hypothesis that have no basis in textual facts . For example, if I said, "The post-fall scripture narrative doesn't say that Adam rejected God's atoning provision didn't save continued in his unbelief after he sinned", this would be an argument from silence since Scripture does explicitly tell us that God reconciled Eve unto himself and she exercised faith subsequent to her reconciliation. Therefore, the exegetical observation I make about Adam is legitimate. It's legitimate to ask, "Why isn't there positive evidence for Adam as there is for Eve?" The whole point to exegesis is to extract from the text what is explicitly stated or logically implied in the text.
And the fact that neither A or E outwardly rejected God's coverings does not necessarily speak to what was in their heart. After all, A&E FEARED God (and his impending judgment), for after they sinned they ran and hid from Him. The only thing they had in mind was to distance themselves from Him. Adam, in his fear, was not likely to be openly defiant towards the being who created him; but that doesn't necessarily translate into him sporting an equally compliant heart. Sin in its essence is deceitful! Adam paid "lip service" to God by donning the coverings God provided but this doesn't mean that he had a sincere, repenting, believing heart for or toward Him. For your info, the entire planet is filled with HYPOCRITES! It's one of the pernicious effects of sin!
Finally, if we take your lame objection about the "sufficiency" of God's atoning provision to its logical conclusion, then we'd have to logically conclude that Christ's atoning sacrifice on the Cross was a HUGE NOTHINGBURGER, since FWers tell us that He died for all men w/o exception, yet only a small remnant is actually being saved. Christ utterly failed to save each and every person in the world, even though FWers allege that was his mission according to Jn 3:17. His work clearly didn't cut it. It was not sufficient, going by your logic. If we go the by numbers, Christ's Cross work was an epic fail!
As stated earlier, appealing only to one track of salvation (the Savior's Provision) does not and cannot tell the entire story since there is a second track: Sinners' Response. We have Eve's Response of faith and we know God reconciled her to Himself when He decreed enmity between the devil and herself. So get busy and tell us to whose seed does Adam belong and provide textual evidence that he exercised faith, as Eve did.
I know, which is why I said as much.
So He died for all without distinguishing between believer and unbeliever but that is not excepting anyone because there is a third group???
Actually it is for me. If it were not for the Lord I might have good reasons not to get out of bed so I warmly suggest you tone down the smart-alek responses.
Lam.3:22-24
Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed,
Because His compassions fail not.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I hope in Him!”
So He died for all without distinguishing between believer and unbeliever but that is not excepting anyone because there is a third group???
Actually it is for me. If it were not for the Lord I might have good reasons not to get out of bed so I warmly suggest you tone down the smart-alek responses.
Lam.3:22-24
Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed,
Because His compassions fail not.
23 They are new every morning;
Great is Your faithfulness.
24 “The Lord is my portion,” says my soul,
“Therefore I hope in Him!”
Conflicted much???
I would like to suggest that you reconsider the meaning of the word “IF” in scripture.
Every time you come across the word, you seem to add (choice) to the meaning. For example:
A statement like “If you do this” in no way implies that the person being spoken to is able to perform what is being stated! In fact, it may well be God's way of putting a nail in the coffin of a non-believer.
Just something that I wish you would consider.
Every time you come across the word, you seem to add (choice) to the meaning. For example:
A statement like “If you do this” in no way implies that the person being spoken to is able to perform what is being stated! In fact, it may well be God's way of putting a nail in the coffin of a non-believer.
Just something that I wish you would consider.
FTFY.
One more thing: Remember the question I asked you several months ago about what makes the believer who accepts the gospel different from the unbeliever who doesn't? You clearly and unequivocally assigned the difference to the sinner's will -- his smarts, his intelligence, etc.. But now look and see how Paul framed this very question -- not with a "what" but with "who"!
1 Cor 4:7
7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
You very clearly boasted as though you have never received God's grace, since you said MAN makes the difference! Your own words condemn you and betray the true nature of your heart!
One more thing: Remember the question I asked you several months ago about what makes the believer who accepts the gospel different from the unbeliever who doesn't? You clearly and unequivocally assigned the difference to the sinner's will -- his smarts, his intelligence, etc.. But now look and see how Paul framed this very question -- not with a "what" but with "who"!
1 Cor 4:7
7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?
You very clearly boasted as though you have never received God's grace, since you said MAN makes the difference! Your own words condemn you and betray the true nature of your heart!
So you are now saying Israel was not ABLE TO PERFORM "iffy" sins by acts of their own free will?
Preposterous. The entire Bible cries out against this kind of nonsensical philosophical rubbish.
What God DOES say innumerable times is that CHOOSING to sin THEN gets a reaction from God..... judgement.
Preposterous. The entire Bible cries out against this kind of nonsensical philosophical rubbish.
What God DOES say innumerable times is that CHOOSING to sin THEN gets a reaction from God..... judgement.
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I would like to suggest that it is not I but you who are being preposterous!
Please look at Jer 17:10 - I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
Then consider Jer 18:8 - if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
Do you not understand that God knew the heart of his people. He certainly did! He new that their heart was not set on him, but other gods and following their own heart. They rejected His plea and proclaimed In Jer 18:12 - And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.” .
God was therefore just in saying If you turn from your evil, knowing, with certainty, that they would be unable to do so!
Please look at Jer 17:10 - I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.
Then consider Jer 18:8 - if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.
Do you not understand that God knew the heart of his people. He certainly did! He new that their heart was not set on him, but other gods and following their own heart. They rejected His plea and proclaimed In Jer 18:12 - And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.” .
God was therefore just in saying If you turn from your evil, knowing, with certainty, that they would be unable to do so!
I would like to suggest that you reconsider the meaning of the word “IF” in scripture.
Every time you come across the word, you seem to add (choice) to the meaning. For example:
A statement like “If you do this” in no way implies that the person being spoken to is able to perform what is being stated! In fact, it may well be God's way of putting a nail in the coffin of a non-believer.
Just something that I wish you would consider.
Every time you come across the word, you seem to add (choice) to the meaning. For example:
A statement like “If you do this” in no way implies that the person being spoken to is able to perform what is being stated! In fact, it may well be God's way of putting a nail in the coffin of a non-believer.
Just something that I wish you would consider.
You are saying that God is the "cause" of the because?
Because that is what the super-determinists believe. That every sin of Israel is God's fault because it is all "predestined"
[Jer 19:4 KJV] 4 BECAUSE they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
[Jer 19:5 KJV] 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire [for] burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake [it], neither came [it] into my mind:
[Jer 4:4 KJV] 4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench [it], BECAUSE of the evil of your doings.
[Jer 4:17 KJV] 17 As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; BECAUSE she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.
[Gen 3:14 KJV] 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, BECAUSE thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Oh my...it appears I overestimated you and gave you too much credit. You didn't know that the godly disposition of heart known as the Fear of the Lord is a divine gift, did you? I bet you thought that was just another "theory" I cooked up....