Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Scripture also plainly states that salvation is by God's will and desire, not the desire, will, or effort of man.

1 Corinthians 4 verse 7b; John 3 verse 27; Romans 9 verses 15-16 ~ What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[Jackson129]

Another verse says God did not choose because of anything we had done. Foreknowledge is mentioned somewhere also but it does not say knowledge in terms of Him knowing what we would choose to believe, if that is what you are saying. In fact we are told that people do not choose for themselves, and that the unsaved do not seek after God, that God must draw them, and that those given to Jesus by God WILL come. There is nothing about choosing there. Just the given fact that those given will come. My own process was long and drawn out. I did not want to believe. I did not want to be a Christian. I was distressed when it seemed that was the direction I was going. And yet, I continued to go to church, I met others along the way who were Christians whom I admired, I got involved in an Alpha Course (are you familiar with it?) because of some of those people, and during that course I DISCOVERED that I no longer needed any more convincing of the Truth of God's revealed written Word. Some people make choosing to believe sound like they are in a cafeteria lineup picking their selections.

I believe God knows everything including whether or not we are gonna believe. That is the forknowledge slash pre destination concept. I too never went to church not raised in it never gave it 2 thoughts. But as things happened in my life I came to believe. That in no ways is saying I saved myself. But I did make a decision to really believe. I can't speak of the whys or how's of how other people came to God. I dont have the faintest idea of why they made that decision. I do believe in my heart God did not force me to believe in Him and he does not force others not to believe. IMO man's responsibility in responding to the word is his own decision. That dosent mean they saved themselves. Not even close.

 

[Magenta]

I believe God knows everything including whether or not we are gonna believe. That is the forknowledge slash pre destination concept. I too never went to church not raised in it never gave it 2 thoughts. But as things happened in my life I came to believe. That in no ways is saying I saved myself. But I did make a decision to really believe. I can't speak of the whys or how's of how other people came to God. I dont have the faintest idea of why they made that decision. I do believe in my heart God did not force me to believe in Him and he does not force others not to believe. IMO man's responsibility in responding to the word is his own decision. That dosent mean they saved themselves. Not even close.

Why do people speak about God forcing people to believe??? What in the world...

Oh, yes, we are all robots. That comes next. Well, some people lead with it.

And also, I too believe God is omniscient. Some deny this. I believe they are called open Theists.

 

[Jackson129]

Why do people speak about God forcing people to believe??? What in the world...

Oh, yes, we are all robots, That comes next.

The hardliners from the elect camp if you will say we were chosen to be the elect. When I hear that it sounds like this. It wouldn't matter if I sat in a closet my whole life chugging liquior God would just will me into repenting and believing.

 

[Magenta]

The hardliners from the elect camp if you will say we were chosen to be the elect. When I hear that it sounds like this.
It wouldn't matter if I sat in a closet my whole life chugging liquor God would just will me into repenting and believing.

And what if He did? Would you fault Him for it? Does He not know what is best for each and every single one of us?

Hey, I have a suggestion for you. Attend a few AA meetings and listen to them sing God's praises. You just might be amazed.

 

[sawdust]

My sincerest apology for not responding to your question or questions.

I believe salvation is all of God. Read Ephesians 1. The One doing everything is God.

I don't really understand choosing to believe. I've never chosen to believe. I either believed something or I didn't. Faith comes by the word of God. When I got saved, I heard the word of God and believed. When I heard the gospel and didn't get saved, I didn't believe. Faith didn't come by the word of God those times. When I did believe, the Spirit of God employed the word of God and birthed faith in me. Thus, I believed.

Salvation didn't come at those times because you didn't believe. It's simple. Unless you are wanting to fault the Gospel, it only leaves you as the problem.

I also believe salvation is all of God. Whether you understand "choosing to believe" or not is beside the point. The fact is, whatever we believe or don't believe it is because we have chosen to agree/disagree with whatever is presented. Believing has to come from somewhere and if it was purely a spiritual phenomenon, you might have a point, but it isn't. Faith comes from the word but believing is an act of our will.

Your last sentence should read "when I believed .... thus I had faith".

God had made "our will" the issue in this age because Lucifer said "I will" five times in his heart where no-one but God could see. The Gospel put's our will on display for all to see.

 

[Jackson129]

And what if He did? Would you fault Him for it? Does He not know what is best for each and every single one of us?

Hey, I have a suggestion for you. Attend a few AA meetings and listen to them sing God's praises.

I have multiple times I was a ragging alcoholic for 20 years before comming to God and allowing Him into my heart and save me from that.

 

[Magenta]

I have multiple times I was a ragging alcoholic for 20 years before coming to God and allowing Him into my heart and save me from that.

Praise the Lord! I used mind and mood altering substances for about 24 years before I cried out to the God I did not believe in for help. Within days I was clean and sober and lost the desire to use. Now I had not asked for help to stop using, no sirree Bob! I liked getting a buzz on. Unfortunately it went with a lot of other not so pleasant things, the consequences of which were sometimes quite painful and which I was powerless over, such as alcohol poisoning, drug overdoses, relationship failures. Etc etc. Still, it did not escape my notice that my life started changing and improving quite a bit after putting down the substances. I entered into a process known as the 12 steps. People argue about how successful AA is and there is even a thread here calling it Satanic which is completely ridiculous. The whole purpose of the program is to help people develop and maintain a personal relationship with God. I made a panel about the AA promises just last weekend.

If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us — sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them. The Promises from the Big Book of AA Chapter 6.

 

[Cameron143]

Salvation didn't come at those times because you didn't believe. It's simple. Unless you are wanting to fault the Gospel, it only leaves you as the problem.

I also believe salvation is all of God. Whether you understand "choosing to believe" or not is beside the point. The fact is, whatever we believe or don't believe it is because we have chosen to agree/disagree with whatever is presented. Believing has to come from somewhere and if it was purely a spiritual phenomenon, you might have a point, but it isn't. Faith comes from the word but believing is an act of our will.

Your last sentence should read "when I believed .... thus I had faith".

God had made "our will" the issue in this age because Lucifer said "I will" five times in his heart where no-one but God could see. The Gospel put's our will on display for all to see.

This is your understanding. I respect that it is your belief, but it is not mine. When faith was birthed in me, I believed. I wrote exactly what I believe. For you, the source of faith is you. For me, faith came by the word of God. It's a little like...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me. I believe, yet not I, faith came by the word of God.

Have you found a verse that says people are chosen to believe? How about one that states that faith comes by believing?

 

[Jackson129]

Praise the Lord! I used mind and mood altering substances for about 24 years before I cried out to the God I did not believe in for help. Within days I was clean and sober and lost the desire to use. Now I had not asked for help to stop using, no sirree Bob! I liked getting a buzz on. Unfortunately it went with a lot of other not so pleasant things, the consequences of which were sometimes quite painful and which I was powerless over, such as alcohol poisoning, drug overdoses, relationship failures. Etc etc. Still, it did not escape my notice that my life started changing and improving quite a bit after putting down the substances. I entered into a process known as the 12 steps. People argue about how successful AA is and there is even a thread here calling it Satanic which is completely ridiculous. The whole purpose of the program is to help people develop and maintain a personal relationship with God. I made a panel about the AA promises just last weekend.

If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us — sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. They will always materialize if we work for them. The Promises from the Big Book of AA Chapter 6.

I drank 6 days a week. And handfuls of pills or other substances was my hangover cure. Then repeat after work. From 18-36 . When I repented instantly no more drinking. The drugs took a few more month because all my friends did drugs. So the temptation was there but as I slowed down I must have not been cool to hang out with anymore haha. So they just all disappeared. Except for the few who wernt into stuff like that.

 

[Rufus]

A very misguided soul here (whose handle I don't remember) earlier posted that election refers to God choosing Christ. He magically turned "us" in Eph 1:4 into Christ, completely oblivious to this following passage which I'll quote in several literal translations.

1 Thess 1:4
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
NKJV

1 Thess 1:4
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
KJV

1 Thess 1:4
4 knowing, brethren beloved of God, your election,
ASV

1 Thess 1:4
4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election.
Darby

1 Thess 1:4
4 having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election,
YLT

Even though Christ isn't mentioned in this text, I'm sure this person will find a way to replace another personal pronoun ("you") with Him anyway.

 

[Magenta]

I drank 6 days a week. And handfuls of pills or other substances was my hangover cure. Then repeat after work. From 18-36 . When I repented instantly no more drinking. The drugs took a few more month because all my friends did drugs. So the temptation was there but as I slowed down I must have not been cool to hang out with anymore haha. So they just all disappeared. Except for the few who wernt into stuff like that.

I understand. I had no problem hanging out with my friends in bars because we sang karaoke, and not drinking, but that first week after getting clean some said said "they owed me one" and I ended up smoking up against my will because I did not want to go into the whole song and dance routine about how I was wanting to quit for the rest of my life, but that too was a learning experience, because for one, I do not have to justify myself to anybody else and two, it is a just for today program! Just for today I do not want to smoke dope, I need not say anything about my desires for the rest of my life. So the slogans started making sense, and the serenity prayer helped me more often than not, sometimes I said it over and over and over again just to get through cravings (cigarettes). But more than that and very important was the inspiration I gleaned from those rooms of people sharing the conditions of their lives, even their God stories were wonderful while I was as yet an unbeliever. The support, direction, and encouragement I found in those rooms, and rooms like it, for I attended multiple fellowships over the years, were all quite valuable to me among other resources I availed myself of. Sometimes I think of it as making straight the path for the coming of our Lord. I surely resisted even when He came for me. But I would never say He forced me to believe. More I would say I finally and eventually became like Peter who asked, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Serenity Prayer

 

[Rufus]

I drank 6 days a week. And handfuls of pills or other substances was my hangover cure. Then repeat after work. From 18-36 . When I repented instantly no more drinking. The drugs took a few more month because all my friends did drugs. So the temptation was there but as I slowed down I must have not been cool to hang out with anymore haha. So they just all disappeared. Except for the few who wernt into stuff like that.

Thanks for sharing that testimony. And your experience with your old, unsaved friends is very typical. Many Christians have shared similar experiences that involved unsaved family, friends and acquaintances, and it's actually taught in the bible. There's a reason why those of this dark world world are most inclined to separate themselves from those who have become children of the day (light).

 

[HeIsHere]

This is your understanding. I respect that it is your belief, but it is not mine. When faith was birthed in me, I believed. I wrote exactly what I believe. For you, the source of faith is you. For me, faith came by the word of God. It's a little like...I live, yet not I; Christ lives in me. I believe, yet not I, faith came by the word of God.

Have you found a verse that says people are chosen to believe? How about one that states that faith comes by believing?

Love that line "faith was birthed in you."

POOF,
lol

 

[Magenta]

Matthew 16 verses 15-17 ~ What about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

 

[Magenta]

Love that line "faith was birthed in you."

POOF,
lol

Sure. You planted the seeds and watered them and made them grow. In your incurably wicked heart no less! Amazing.

1 Corinthians 3 verses 6-7 I planted the seed and Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God Who makes things grow.

 

[Rufus]

Yeah ….they never just let it say what it says ……

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

But “ they “ just have to explain why that’s not true

Did you have a point to make re this passage? I ask because I believe what it says.

 

[Rufus]

Sure. You planted the seeds and watered them and made them grow. In your incurably wicked heart no less! Amazing.

Which according to the Parable of the Four Soils, that would not be possible except in a good heart. But maybe she was born with such a heart. Never know with these FWers....

 

[Magenta]

Which according to the Parable of the Four Soils, that would not be possible except in a good heart. But maybe she was born with such a heart. Never know with these FWers....

Well she has contradicted herself on even that point though it is the one she hangs her hat on, her hat being the
vain man-exalting philosophy she embraces and chooses to believe over the revealed written Word of God. Yes,
according to her, the heart man is born with is quite good enough despite everything God says against it in Scripture.
That she chose to believe that which was foolishness to her is her crowning glory. Quite the hat it is, indeed.

 

[Cameron143]

Love that line "faith was birthed in you."

POOF,
lol

What does faith come by?