Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Oct 19, 2024
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That's something i'm happy to agree to disagree on GWH. We certainly have choice and can exercise our wills at times, however, in a world with probably 8 billion plus people, FREE will, the ability to exert one's will unilaterally always, is an impossibility for us.

However, we are always accountable for our choices and acts of will, you just don't understand being able to exercise our wills at times doesn't constitute free will. Which isn't an issue for me, i hope we can now engage in reasonable, not rancorous discussion about it.
I appreciate your concern for being reasonable and not rancorous which I share so I have no idea how we got cross wise but if you ever think I cross the line please let me know immediately.

If you would please explain how your understanding justifies hell if you disagree with mine. Thanks.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Just wondering why knowing free will is a silly fiction needs defending HIH? I think your comment is deliberately inflammatory, a very clumsy and obvious attempt to stifle reasonable debate.
There is no debate, because the idea that free will means controlling the outcome of all choices, is not a thing.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The gospel is foolishness to the natural man, since he can neither accept nor comprehend the spiritual things of God. It is impossible for his incurably wicked heart to grow the seed of God’s Word into the good fruit of faith while he is captive to the will of the devil. Along with the rest of the world who does not know God, he is blinded to the truth and under the power and influence of Satan, rendered incapable of submitting to or obeying God, with Whom he is inherently hostile toward in his mind, for he craves what is contrary to the Spirit. He suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, refusing to come into the light because he is a slave to sin, a lover of darkness, defined as darkness itself, and his deeds are evil.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Cheers GWH and so hope you mean that for real, sure you can understand my suspicions at this moment but hopefully, they'll soon be gone.

Ah! One doesn't need free will for choice and intention, God knows what's in our hearts and minds, he holds us accountable for them too. Which is absolutely right in my opinion.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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There is no debate, because the idea that free will means controlling the outcome of all choices, is not a thing.
Nothing i can do when you're incapable of understanding that we have/can will but as we can only exercise it at times, it isn't free will. Only God himself has free will, the angels don't have it either.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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That's so good again precious friend, food for soul and mind.
It is unfortunate perhaps that so many who claim to believe the Bible are so really absolutely clueless about the difference between the natural man and the spiritual man. Their total lack of discernment in this regard is made abundantly clear when they repeatedly ascribe to the former what is only true of the latter. Some claim (as we just saw) that the things said of the natural man do not even apply to all men prior to regeneration! Perhaps they feel they belong in some special group? What ever it is, they reject the words of Jesus Christ and a lot of the Bible on this subject while making their false claims.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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Nothing i can do when you're incapable of understanding that we have/can will but as we can only exercise it at times, it isn't free will. Only God himself has free will, the angels don't have it either.
Free will was a debate started amongst Greek philosophers, has nothing to do with your position/thesis, you should call your position
"external sovereignty human will," absolute external control human will, that would be more fitting.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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Since the other link concerning "free will" was mainly from the perspective of psychology and brain science, here's another from philosophy which just from the entry statements has shown me in the past why I typically avoid the phrase "free will" unless I define it narrowly in an attempt to state what the actual choice is that we want to discuss.

Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

So, to the OP, "can we really exercise free will?":
  1. Please define "free will"
    1. Since at least one or maybe more proposed definitions have been rejected by some, is there a definition that can be agreed upon?
  2. Is this a discussion of science, philosophy, or since it's posted on a Bible discussion forum, does it concern something specific within theology and if so, what is the specific question theologically?
This reminds me of another philosophical topic of discussion we've gotten very used to having based upon secular terminology. A while back for a few reasons I did some research on the word "morality" which our Text really does not use. As I recall, only Paul uses the word or a related one in Greek and only a few times and it's typically translated as "traditions" or something similar.

Yet here we are millennia later having joined into the debate with secular philosophy, assumed their language and all the baggage of the unanchored to God discussion trying to assert God into the talk.

Yet when I read God's Text, He seems quite clearly to have taken to Himself language such as righteousness and holiness, good and bad, sin, etc., which He defines in His Word while mostly setting aside the Greek philosophical reasoning and barely even using the word "moral" which stems from a word which, again as I recall, was coined by Cicero before the time of Christ and thus readily available for use when the NC was written, but God didn't use it in any way that seems that meaningful.

Moral of the story for me has been to set aside as much of this philosophical baggage as possible and just discuss Biblical things with Biblical words. It's difficult by this point, but not impossible.

What's impossible is trying to make sense of the phrase "free will" unless we define it ourselves for our purposes.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Free will was a debate started amongst Greek philosophers, has nothing to do with your position/thesis, you should call your position
"external sovereignty human will," absolute external control human will, that would be more fitting.
What you mean is that was possibly the first time it became part of a discipline. When i say possibly, the only history i know which is immutable, is contained in the Bible. As a keen historian, i can tell you for a fact secular history often turns out to be false/inaccurate and needs revision.

Debate and discussion aren't skills of yours currently, you're yet another who thinks whatever you believe is, well, Gospel. I'm very open minded and love discussion, have often learned something new and useful through it.
You're probably a lot younger than me, think most people become more laid back and open minded as we age.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Since the other link concerning "free will" was mainly from the perspective of psychology and brain science, here's another from philosophy which just from the entry statements has shown me in the past why I typically avoid the phrase "free will" unless I define it narrowly in an attempt to state what the actual choice is that we want to discuss.

Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

So, to the OP, "can we really exercise free will?":
  1. Please define "free will"
    1. Since at least one or maybe more proposed definitions have been rejected by some, is there a definition that can be agreed upon?
  2. Is this a discussion of science, philosophy, or since it's posted on a Bible discussion forum, does it concern something specific within theology and if so, what is the specific question theologically?
This reminds me of another philosophical topic of discussion we've gotten very used to having based upon secular terminology. A while back for a few reasons I did some research on the word "morality" which our Text really does not use. As I recall, only Paul uses the word or a related one in Greek and only a few times and it's typically translated as "traditions" or something similar.

Yet here we are millennia later having joined into the debate with secular philosophy, assumed their language and all the baggage of the unanchored to God discussion trying to assert God into the talk.

Yet when I read God's Text, He seems quite clearly to have taken to Himself language such as righteousness and holiness, good and bad, sin, etc., which He defines in His Word while mostly setting aside the Greek philosophical reasoning and barely even using the word "moral" which stems from a word which, again as I recall, was coined by Cicero before the time of Christ and thus readily available for use when the NC was written, but God didn't use it in any way that seems that meaningful.

Moral of the story for me has been to set aside as much of this philosophical baggage as possible and just discuss Biblical things with Biblical words. It's difficult by this point, but not impossible.

What's impossible is trying to make sense of the phrase "free will" unless we define it ourselves for our purposes.
Just read this, this is a good comment for sure, nice one! Which doesn't mean i'm in complete agreement, but it's a very well reasoned comment, which i appreciate.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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What you mean is that was possibly the first time it became part of a discipline. When i say possibly, the only history i know which is immutable, is contained in the Bible. As a keen historian, i can tell you for a fact secular history often turns out to be false/inaccurate and needs revision.

Debate and discussion aren't skills of yours currently, you're yet another who thinks whatever you believe is, well, Gospel. I'm very open minded and love discussion, have often learned something new and useful through it.
You're probably a lot younger than me, think most people become more laid back and open minded as we age.
"I'm very open minded and love discussion"

"for a fact secular history often turns out to be false/inaccurate and needs revision."
:unsure:


Only God can act and determine all outcomes of His action.

Agree.

No debate/discussion as I already stated.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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"I'm very open minded and love discussion"

"for a fact secular history often turns out to be false/inaccurate and needs revision."
:unsure:


Only God can act and determine all outcomes of His action.

Agree.

No debate/discussion as I already stated.
Why the confusion? It's fact there has been and will be, much revision of history. Seriously don't understand you finding that strange.
Going to play chess too now, it's one of my daily essentials, so probably won't immediately answer comments for a while.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Someone should define free will.
The Biblical concept of will is clearly delineated in the differences made between the natural man and the spiritual man, but those who support the unBiblical notion of the natural man being free to choose to believe aside from Jesus setting them free lack the spiritual discernment required to accept what the Bible actually says on the matter. There are also quite a few Pelagian heretics among FWers.

Some of these FWers even prefer to blaspheme God rather than admit what the Bible actually says.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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💯

The words of Christ Jesus cause many problems for determinists.
Those who CHOOSE to believe Christ (choose to have Him reign over them) also CHOOSE to be a slave to the righteous Master and therefore to righteousness.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
24,714
9,018
113
The Biblical concept of will is clearly delineated in the differences made between the natural man and the spiritual man, but those who support the unBiblical notion of the natural man being free to choose to believe aside from Jesus setting them free lack the spiritual discernment required to accept what the Bible actually says on the matter. There are also quite a few Pelagian heretics among FWers.

Some of these FWers even prefer to blaspheme God rather than admit what the Bible actually says.
No.

This is the standard super-determinist one hit wonder misapprehended taken out of context verses.
The context being......the entire content of the Bible from cover to cover.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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3,448
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Why the confusion? It's fact there has been and will be, much revision of history. Seriously don't understand you finding that strange.
Going to play chess too now, it's one of my daily essentials, so probably won't immediately answer comments for a while.
Facts are facts whether they are contained in scripture or not.
 
Sep 29, 2024
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Those who CHOOSE to believe Christ (choose to have Him reign over them) also CHOOSE to be a slave to the righteous Master and therefore to righteousness.
You think believing we have choice is in doubt? just wondering why you need to capitalise choose.