Don't Eat What God Hates. But Why?

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danschance

Guest
Please show me how end as destruction, obliteration works in these verses...

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

The word 'end' here is G5056, same as Rom 10:4.

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

The word 'custom' here is G5056, same as Rom 10:4.

1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The word 'uttermost' here is G5056, same as Rom 10:4.

Jas 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

The word 'end' here is G5056, same as Rom 10:4.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The word 'end' here is G5056, same as Rom 10:4.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

The word 'finally' here is G5056, same as Rom 10:4.

Care to explain these? Show me how they mean the doing away with the subject at hand. You may start with I Pet 1:9 and Jas 5:11.
John, I studied koine Greek. I would never claim I am an expert in Greek though but I did learn how to read, write and speak it. I also learned that context is very important in translating Greek to English. You are being intellectually dishonest by claiming "telos" only means result when in fact it means many things. In the bible it most often means end. Is there no limit to how far you will go to make your point?
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Yet you are the one attempting to make the Greek "telos" to only mean "result".
No, I am saying it means result in the context of other plain statements about the Law. You were the one making the assertion it HAD to mean abolish in this context. How about harmonizing these scriptures...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Establish...

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.

that can in no way mean abolish. So with this fact clearly in mind, which of the following definitions for "telos - G5056 - end" in Rom 10:4 is in agreement?

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

'Cause if they don't agree, we have a contradiction of scripture and Christ said...

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Now tell me, which definition for telos agrees with Rom 3:31?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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Not under which Law? OK to bow down to statues? How about lying, that OK. If we are not under the Law, then there is standard of conduct?

'We are not under the PENALTY of the Law. Not under the Law in the sense that we are not under the DEATH PENALTY. This is what Paul plainly shows in Romans 7...

Rom 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

So the Laws governing marriage are an example here.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.

Or perhaps you think you are not under that Law either.

Is the Law bad?

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

It is sin that produces evil, not the Law and Paul plainly shows here the purpose of the Law is to define sin...

1Jn 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

But if you insist on continuing to practice lawlessness...

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
Where did I say we are not under the law? Is this how you conduct discussions? Set up a straw man to knock it down.
We are under God's moral code in that His nature is now written on our hearts so that our desires become molded by His nature and desires...and certain foods isn't part of His nature.
So please quit breaking the commandment that says...

You must not ·tell lies about [bear false witness against] your neighbor.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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Btw John, you forgot this verse in your Romans 'commentary'...

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Yup, dead to the law but alive to God.
 
D

danschance

Guest
No, I am saying it means result in the context of other plain statements about the Law. You were the one making the assertion it HAD to mean abolish in this context. How about harmonizing these scriptures...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Establish...

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.

that can in no way mean abolish. So with this fact clearly in mind, which of the following definitions for "telos - G5056 - end" in Rom 10:4 is in agreement?

G5056
τέλος
telos
tel'-os
From a primary word τέλλω tellō (to set out for a definite point or goal); properly the point aimed at as a limit, that is, (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely], result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose); specifically an impost or levy (as paid): - + continual, custom, end (-ing), finally, uttermost. Compare G5411.

'Cause if they don't agree, we have a contradiction of scripture and Christ said...

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Now tell me, which definition for telos agrees with Rom 3:31?


Now you are changing the subject and talking about apples and oranges. First off Romans 3:31 is not talking about the Mosaic law it is referring to the law of Christ which we are absolutely under. Romans 3:27, a few verses earlier Paul states. "By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith." Verse 30 flies in the face of the Mosaic law as Paul states God is the God of the gentiles. You automatically assume "law" = "Mosaic law". You ignore the entire context of the New Testament. It is not wise to make a doctrine out of one verse. All of the NT must make harrmonize as a whole.

Telos and hystemi are not synonyms or even related.
 
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danschance

Guest
Where did I say we are not under the law? Is this how you conduct discussions? Set up a straw man to knock it down.
We are under God's moral code in that His nature is now written on our hearts so that our desires become molded by His nature and desires...and certain foods isn't part of His nature.
So please quit breaking the commandment that says...

You must not ·tell lies about [bear false witness against] your neighbor.
Exactly, we are under the law of Christ which are moral laws. I have said this dozens of times and yet the law keepers completely ignore it. I will bet they think the NT law of Christ = Mosaic law.
 
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C

CRC

Guest
Mark 7:17-23) [SUP]17[/SUP] Now when he had entered a house away from the crowd, his disciples began to question him respecting the illustration. [SUP]18[/SUP] So he said to them: “Are YOU also without perception like them? Are YOU not aware that nothing from outside that passes into a man can defile him, [SUP]19[/SUP] since it passes, not into [his] heart, but into [his] intestines, and it passes out into the sewer?” Thus he declared all foods clean. [SUP]20[/SUP] Further, he said: “That which issues forth out of a man is what defiles a man; [SUP]21[/SUP] for from inside, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, thieveries, murders, [SUP]22[/SUP] adulteries, covetings, acts of wickedness, deceit, loose conduct, an envious eye, blasphemy, haughtiness, unreasonableness. [SUP]23[/SUP] All these wicked things issue forth from within and defile a man.”
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Mark 7:17-23) [SUP]17[/SUP] Now when he had entered a house away from the crowd, his disciples began to question him respecting the illustration. [SUP]18[/SUP] So he said to them: “Are YOU also without perception like them? Are YOU not aware that nothing from outside that passes into a man can defile him, [SUP]19[/SUP] since it passes, not into [his] heart, but into [his] intestines, and it passes out into the sewer?” Thus he declared all foods clean. [SUP]20[/SUP] Further, he said: “That which issues forth out of a man is what defiles a man; [SUP]21[/SUP] for from inside, out of the heart of men, injurious reasonings issue forth: fornications, thieveries, murders, [SUP]22[/SUP] adulteries, covetings, acts of wickedness, deceit, loose conduct, an envious eye, blasphemy, haughtiness, unreasonableness. [SUP]23[/SUP] All these wicked things issue forth from within and defile a man.”
Added words to the revealed greek text have led many to something that is not Scripture.

The case of added words and a parable vol 1

"Thus Jesus declared all foods clean"

Mark 7:1-23, "Then the Pharisees and certain scribes came together to Him, having come from Yerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of His disciples eating bread with defiled-that is to say, unwashed--hands, they found fault. 3 (Now the Pharisees, and the Yahdaim generally, never eat without washing their hands, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the marketplaces, they do not eat unless they wash. And many other traditions they observe, such as the ritual washing of cups, pots, bronze utensils, and beds.) 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? 6 He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! 9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition! 10 For Mosheh said: Honor your father and your mother; and: Whoever curses father or mother, let him be put to death; 11 But you say; If a man will say to his father or mother: Anything of mine which might have benefited you is qorban (that is, a gift set apart for Yahweh)-- 12 You excuse him from doing what he is obligated to do for his father and his mother; 13 Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your ctradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do. 14 And when He had called all the people to Him, He said to them: Everyone, listen to Me and understand! 15 There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are things which defile the man. 16 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear! 17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable. 18 He said to them; Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is cleansed out? 20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man; 21 For from within--out of the heart of men, dfrom his mind--proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness-- 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Mark 7:1-23,

1 Then the Pharisees and certain scribes came together to Him, having come from Yerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of His disciples eating bread with defiled-that is to say, unwashed--hands, they found fault.

3 (Now the Pharisees, and the Yahdaim generally, never eat without washing their hands, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the marketplaces, they do not eat unless they wash. And many other traditions they observe, such as the ritual washing of cups, pots, bronze utensils, and beds.)

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?

So in context the topic is about a "hand washing tradition," food is not even a topic of the debate. Also for a little bit of Scriptual understanding, this "hand washing" is not using soap, it is a pharisee ritual in which one uses specified silver pichers (also specified by pharisee law) and pours water over the left hand, then the right hand, and again, over the left hand, then the right hand, and according to some pharisee this must be done a third time. But the tradition is not over yet, no, now one would say a "prayer" thanking the "Creator" for commanding the ritual. Thing is, you will not find a single Scripture commanding this ritual, yet the pharisees enforced this as if it was law.

6 He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.

7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men!

9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!

So clearly Yahshua the Messiah rebukes them for not only making their own "laws" but actually casting aside the Laws of Yahweh. Since foods neing clean or unclean is a common understand attached to this passage, let us consider if food Laws are man made or if the Creator made these Laws.

Genesis 7:1-2, "Then Yahweh said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And Yahweh spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am Yahweh your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."

We can see these Laws literally came directly from the mouth of Yahweh, so when Messiah said: "How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!" It is clear He is not rebuking them for telling people to follow Yahweh's food Laws, but for their pharisee hand washing "law."

Malakyah 3:6-7, "For I am Yahweh, I change not; therefore you sons of Yaaqob are not consumed. Ever since the days of your fathers you have turned away from My ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you! says Yahweh of hosts. But you said; How will we return?"

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

10 For Mosheh said: Honor your father and your mother; and: Whoever curses father or mother, let him be put to death;

11 But you say; If a man will say to his father or mother: Anything of mine which might have benefited you is qorban (that is, a gift set apart for Yahweh)--

12 You excuse him from doing what he is obligated to do for his father and his mother;

13 Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your ctradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do.

More evidence of the pharisees adding their own laws to the people why excusing themselves from following Yahweh;s Law.

14 And when He had called all the people to Him, He said to them: Everyone, listen to Me and understand!

15 There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are things which defile the man.

16 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear!

17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable.

Because Messiah say: "nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him" many that want to reject Yahweh;s food Laws say see I can eat! But when did context of Scripture not matter? In context the entire passage is about eating with "unwashed--hands." Can we completely roemove it from its context and expect to get the true meaning? Also if you consider verse 17, "His disciples asked Him about the parable," yet "all things are clean food" is taught as doctrine, not as parable........Again in context vesrse 17, parable. SO Meswsiah proceeds to explain further:

18 He said to them; Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Now this is where the deception comes in, as you see I have shown verse 19 translated 2 different ways. Which one is correct? The second translation is the much more common translation, here is a short list of translations that match the second translation (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean): New International Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, NET Bible, GOD'S WORD Translation, English Revised Version, Weymouth New Testament.

We will look at the original language, but first I want to mention again, CONTEXT, can we somehow go from the whole topic being about a hand washing ritual and unclan animals not even being in the discussion to unclean animals are now food?




The first thing you will notice is the words, "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean," are completely absent. Before moving on, I want to ask, why did someone feel the need to forge words into the text that are not there. Is it ok to just add words wherever I want? Of course not.

19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet (856) as all food is cleansed out (2511)?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

856 - aphedrón
aphedrón: a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain
Original Word: ἀφεδρών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aphedrón
Phonetic Spelling: (af-ed-rone')
Short Definition: a drain, latrine
Definition: a drain, latrine
Word Origin - from apo and hedraios
Definition - a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain

2511 - katharizó
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
Word Origin - from katharos
Definition - to cleanse

20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man;

21 For from within--out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness--

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

No this is not about pork, it is about the pharisee making a show they are holy with their appearances, but Messiah is saying evil is that which should be guarded against.

This exact same account is also detailed in Mattithyah 15, and this is also shown there:

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:17, "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters in at the mouth goes into the stomach, and then is cast out in elimination?"

But is we keep readin we see the meaning of the PARABLE:

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

So in Mattithyah the parable is fully explained, yet in Mark it is not, is it possibe that is why those false words were added to Mark 7:19? If they were added to Mattithyah 15, it would have been a contradiction, but Mark having not being fully explained, it left the door open?
 
N

nathan3

Guest
In Africa and parts of Asia bugs are eaten as food. They are high in protien, low in fat and are healthy to eat. John the baptist ate locusts which last time I checked were bugs.
Actually John the baptist followed God's health laws, that was the other purpose of my longer post...

We can see its written, God says it is okay to eat, and are clean.
Leviticus 11:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

23 But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.

24 And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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It was my bad, I wasn't clear at all.
No biggie sister and no problem....I do the same sometimes as I sometimes have 10 conversations going on at the same time and misread something or hit the wrong button. :)
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
ah Yeah, this thread is great, you learn everything from A to Z here, about lol all the apostals Phroophets, Levitical food laws, foods, and everything in one basket.:) almost like the food forums
 

Attachments

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,783
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19 οτι ουκ εισπορευεται αυτου εισ την καρδιαν αλλ εισ την κοιλιαν και εισ τον αφεδρωνα εκπορευεται καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα (Byzantine GNT)

Look at the last four words of v.19 ...'purifying all foods'...καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα
 
J

jkalyna

Guest
Added words to the revealed greek text have led many to something that is not Scripture.

The case of added words and a parable vol 1

"Thus Jesus declared all foods clean"

Mark 7:1-23, "Then the Pharisees and certain scribes came together to Him, having come from Yerusalem. 2 And when they saw some of His disciples eating bread with defiled-that is to say, unwashed--hands, they found fault. 3 (Now the Pharisees, and the Yahdaim generally, never eat without washing their hands, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 And when they come from the marketplaces, they do not eat unless they wash. And many other traditions they observe, such as the ritual washing of cups, pots, bronze utensils, and beds.) 5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? 6 He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! 9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition! 10 For Mosheh said: Honor your father and your mother; and: Whoever curses father or mother, let him be put to death; 11 But you say; If a man will say to his father or mother: Anything of mine which might have benefited you is qorban (that is, a gift set apart for Yahweh)-- 12 You excuse him from doing what he is obligated to do for his father and his mother; 13 Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your ctradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do. 14 And when He had called all the people to Him, He said to them: Everyone, listen to Me and understand! 15 There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are things which defile the man. 16 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear! 17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable. 18 He said to them; Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is cleansed out? 20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man; 21 For from within--out of the heart of men, dfrom his mind--proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness-- 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

Mark 7:1-23,

1 Then the Pharisees and certain scribes came together to Him, having come from Yerusalem.

2 And when they saw some of His disciples eating bread with defiled-that is to say, unwashed--hands, they found fault.

3 (Now the Pharisees, and the Yahdaim generally, never eat without washing their hands, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the marketplaces, they do not eat unless they wash. And many other traditions they observe, such as the ritual washing of cups, pots, bronze utensils, and beds.)

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?

So in context the topic is about a "hand washing tradition," food is not even a topic of the debate. Also for a little bit of Scriptual understanding, this "hand washing" is not using soap, it is a pharisee ritual in which one uses specified silver pichers (also specified by pharisee law) and pours water over the left hand, then the right hand, and again, over the left hand, then the right hand, and according to some pharisee this must be done a third time. But the tradition is not over yet, no, now one would say a "prayer" thanking the "Creator" for commanding the ritual. Thing is, you will not find a single Scripture commanding this ritual, yet the pharisees enforced this as if it was law.

6 He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.

7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men!

9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!

So clearly Yahshua the Messiah rebukes them for not only making their own "laws" but actually casting aside the Laws of Yahweh. Since foods neing clean or unclean is a common understand attached to this passage, let us consider if food Laws are man made or if the Creator made these Laws.

Genesis 7:1-2, "Then Yahweh said to Noah: Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation. You shall take with you seven pairs of every clean animal, a male and his female; two of animals that are unclean, a male and his female;"

Leviticus 11:1-2, "And Yahweh spoke to Mosheh and Aaron, saying to them: Speak to the children of Israyl, saying; These are the animals you may eat among all the beasts upon the land" 43-44, "You shall not make yourselves abominable with any creature that moves about on the ground. Do not defile yourselves by means of them, nor be made unclean by them. I am Yahweh your Heavenly Father. You shall therefore consecrate and sanctify yourselves, and you shall be holy; for I am holy. Neither shall you defile yourselves with any creature that moves about on the ground." 46-47, "This is the Law of the animals, and the birds, and every living thing that moves in the waters, and every creature that moves about on the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean--between the animal that may be eaten, and the animal that may not be eaten."

We can see these Laws literally came directly from the mouth of Yahweh, so when Messiah said: "How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!" It is clear He is not rebuking them for telling people to follow Yahweh's food Laws, but for their pharisee hand washing "law."

Malakyah 3:6-7, "For I am Yahweh, I change not; therefore you sons of Yaaqob are not consumed. Ever since the days of your fathers you have turned away from My ordinances, and have not kept them. Return to Me, and I will return to you! says Yahweh of hosts. But you said; How will we return?"

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

10 For Mosheh said: Honor your father and your mother; and: Whoever curses father or mother, let him be put to death;

11 But you say; If a man will say to his father or mother: Anything of mine which might have benefited you is qorban (that is, a gift set apart for Yahweh)--

12 You excuse him from doing what he is obligated to do for his father and his mother;

13 Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your ctradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do.

More evidence of the pharisees adding their own laws to the people why excusing themselves from following Yahweh;s Law.

14 And when He had called all the people to Him, He said to them: Everyone, listen to Me and understand!

15 There is nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are things which defile the man.

16 If any man has ears to hear, let him hear!

17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable.

Because Messiah say: "nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him" many that want to reject Yahweh;s food Laws say see I can eat! But when did context of Scripture not matter? In context the entire passage is about eating with "unwashed--hands." Can we completely roemove it from its context and expect to get the true meaning? Also if you consider verse 17, "His disciples asked Him about the parable," yet "all things are clean food" is taught as doctrine, not as parable........Again in context vesrse 17, parable. SO Meswsiah proceeds to explain further:

18 He said to them; Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Now this is where the deception comes in, as you see I have shown verse 19 translated 2 different ways. Which one is correct? The second translation is the much more common translation, here is a short list of translations that match the second translation (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean): New International Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, NET Bible, GOD'S WORD Translation, English Revised Version, Weymouth New Testament.

We will look at the original language, but first I want to mention again, CONTEXT, can we somehow go from the whole topic being about a hand washing ritual and unclan animals not even being in the discussion to unclean animals are now food?




The first thing you will notice is the words, "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean," are completely absent. Before moving on, I want to ask, why did someone feel the need to forge words into the text that are not there. Is it ok to just add words wherever I want? Of course not.

19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet (856) as all food is cleansed out (2511)?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

856 - aphedrón
aphedrón: a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain
Original Word: ἀφεδρών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aphedrón
Phonetic Spelling: (af-ed-rone')
Short Definition: a drain, latrine
Definition: a drain, latrine
Word Origin - from apo and hedraios
Definition - a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain

2511 - katharizó
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
Word Origin - from katharos
Definition - to cleanse

20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man;

21 For from within--out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness--

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

No this is not about pork, it is about the pharisee making a show they are holy with their appearances, but Messiah is saying evil is that which should be guarded against.

This exact same account is also detailed in Mattithyah 15, and this is also shown there:

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:17, "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters in at the mouth goes into the stomach, and then is cast out in elimination?"

But is we keep readin we see the meaning of the PARABLE:

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

So in Mattithyah the parable is fully explained, yet in Mark it is not, is it possibe that is why those false words were added to Mark 7:19? If they were added to Mattithyah 15, it would have been a contradiction, but Mark having not being fully explained, it left the door open?
wow this is like school here I'm learning a lot even Hebrew, Terrific lolllllllllllll don't know what to say, I'm so happy,, reading all the posts :)
 
D

danschance

Guest
Actually John the baptist followed God's health laws, that was the other purpose of my longer post...
I am sure you mean :God's health laws WHICH WERE GIVEN TO THE JEWS. The Mosaic laws were never given to the gentiles and there is nothing in scripture which states Christians or gentile believers are to follow them. Right?
 
N

nathan3

Guest
I am sure you mean :God's health laws WHICH WERE GIVEN TO THE JEWS. The Mosaic laws were never given to the gentiles and there is nothing in scripture which states Christians or gentile believers are to follow them. Right?
God's health laws where Not given to the jews, but to all Israel, and anyone in their land. Especially the Christian who are expected to listen to God's words as Christ taught. That includes God's health laws. The jews,I think you mean the scribes and Pharisee's during the time of Christ, where not even part of Israel or even Judah, except by location.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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God's health laws where Not given to the jews, but to all Israel, and anyone in their land. Especially the Christian who are expected to listen to God's words as Christ taught. That includes God's health laws. The jews,I think you mean the scribes and Pharisee's during the time of Christ, where not even part of Israel or even Judah, except by location.
Why didn't Peter, Paul or John and James or the others go over the essentials with us goyiim on what we should and should not eat if it's so crucial to our walk??
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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I am sure you mean :God's health laws WHICH WERE GIVEN TO THE JEWS. The Mosaic laws were never given to the gentiles and there is nothing in scripture which states Christians or gentile believers are to follow them. Right?
Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Yeremyah 31:33, "After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; minds, and I will be their Father, and they will be My people."

8451. torah - torah: direction, instruction, law Original Word: תּוֹרָה Part of Speech: Noun Feminine Transliteration: torah
Phonetic Spelling: (to-raw') Short Definition: law

Romans 9:6-8, "However, it is not as though Yahweh's plan had failed. For it is not everyone who is a descendant of Israyl who belongs to Israyl. Nor, just because they are his descendants, are they all Abraham's children; but: In Isaac will your seed be called. That is, it is not those who are the children of the flesh who are Yahweh's children; but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's seed."

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is Yahweh our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Galations 3:28,29, "Is there not the Yahdai as well as the Greek; Gentile? Is there not the slave as well as the freeman? Is there not the male and the female? For all of you must be in unity in Yahshua Messiah. And if you are in Messiah, then you are a seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise."

Psalam 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
 

Hizikyah

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19 οτι ουκ εισπορευεται αυτου εισ την καρδιαν αλλ εισ την κοιλιαν και εισ τον αφεδρωνα εκπορευεται καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα (Byzantine GNT)

Look at the last four words of v.19 ...'purifying all foods'...καθαριζον παντα τα βρωματα
2511 - katharizó
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
Word Origin - from katharos
Definition - to cleanse

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Kepha is Peter, so if all foods were cleansed why did Kepha years later still not eat unclean food?

Acts 10:14, "But Kepha said; By no means, Ruler, for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."

Because Mark & and Matt 15 were not about food but a pharisee hand washing ritual.

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

As Acts 10 was not about food either:

Acts 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean."

This is so simple.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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2511 - katharizó
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
Word Origin - from katharos
Definition - to cleanse

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."
well you defined one word, 'cleansed', purified'
How about 'panta' and 'bromata'?