US spy case: Snowden seeks Switzerland asylum move

[Viligant_Warrior]

On China-US relations: Me thinks you need only look where your products are "Made In" to understand the close ties between the US and China. Mayhap you all ready know whom has invested nearly 1 trillion dollars in the US?

That's economics, not foreign relations, and the two rarely have any connection.

On Snowden and US govenment spying. If Snowden obtained his information by espionage and treason; how did the US government obtain the information on all its people?

So two wrongs make a right? Is that your reasoning? Or your Snowden Defense? Either way, it's a loser.

Indeed we must forgive Snowden ...

You forgive him if you want. I will in my heart, as the Bible calls for, and then when he actually asks for it and is willing to face the consequences of his actions, I'll publicly offer it -- not that I will make a hill of beans difference to him, one way or another.

 

[Chainhand]

Yeah, let's all just forgive a treasonous spy. No problem. View attachment 100499

Yeah, I had to wonder if you were being intentionally cheeky as to which treasonous spies you are calling for the punishment of.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

That's economics, not foreign relations, and the two rarely have any connection.

So two wrongs make a right? Is that your reasoning? Or your Snowden Defense? Either way, it's a loser.

You forgive him if you want. I will in my heart, as the Bible calls for, and then when he actually asks for it and is willing to face the consequences of his actions, I'll publicly offer it -- not that I will make a hill of beans difference to him, one way or another.

Economics and foreign relations go hand-in-hand in this era. US economy dies without China. Chinese economy dies without US. You might want to look into this more, many Americans are quite well connected to China and China is quite well connected to US. Even on just a commonman level by far the most desirable place for Chinese tourists is America. Just go find out how many of the "princelings" of CCP members attend US universities. This in my opinion is a good thing though, so no complaints from me.

No, two wrongs do not make a right. The only way to make right this wrong that the government has done unto all of us is to forgive them or dissolve them. Me thinks it's easier to forgive. Forgiveness also allows for the more interesting dynamic wherein the government must in turn forgive.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Economics and foreign relations go hand-in-hand in this era.

That's indicative of a failure to grasp the total disconnect of global business with diplomatic realities. It doesn't hold true. There are many allies with whom our corporations trade, and the restrictions on trade with our enemies are virtually meaningless.

US economy dies without China. Chinese economy dies without US.

Utter nonsense. China's would die without the U.S., true, but if U.S.-China trade collapsed, the U.S. would barely notice. On the other hand, as reported in Forbes a little over three years ago, the Chinese economy is, statistically, 175.6% dependent on the U.S.

No, two wrongs do not make a right. The only way to make right this wrong that the government has done unto all of us is to forgive them or dissolve them. Me thinks it's easier to forgive. Forgiveness also allows for the more interesting dynamic wherein the government must in turn forgive.

No government, no people supporting said government, can afford to allow a treasonous spy get away with espionage and two-year "vacation" in Moscow. If he wants to come home, let him surrender himself to the U.S. embassy there.

 

[Skinski7]

Yeah, I had to wonder if you were being intentionally cheeky as to which treasonous spies you are calling for the punishment of.

Or treasonous Congressmen and Senators...

An ultimate goal of the United States is a world which is free from the scourge of war and the dangers and burdens of armaments; in which the use of force has been subordinated to the rule of law; and in which international adjustments to a changing world are achieved peacefully. It is the purpose of this chapter to provide impetus toward this goal by addressing the problem of reduction and control of armaments looking toward ultimate world disarmament.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/2551

As used in this chapter—

(a) The terms “arms control” and “disarmament” mean the identification, verification, inspection, limitation, control, reduction, or elimination, of armed forces and armaments of all kinds under international agreement including the necessary steps taken under such an agreement to establish an effective system of international control, or to create and strengthen international organizations for the maintenance of peace.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/2552

The progressive steps to be taken during the final phase of the disarmament program would be directed toward the attainment of a world in which:
(a) States would retain only those forces, non-nuclear armaments, and establishments required for the purpose of maintaining internal order; they would also support and provide agreed manpower for a U.N Peace Force.
(b) The U.N. Peace Force, equipped with agreed types and quantities of armaments, would be fully functioning.
(c) The manufacture of armaments would be prohibited except for those of agreed types and quantities to be used by the U.N. Peace Force and those required to maintain internal order. All other armaments would be destroyed or converted to peaceful purposes.
(d) The peace-keeping capabilities of the United Nations would be sufficiently strong and the obligations of all states under such arrangements sufficiently far-reaching as to assure peace and the just settlement of differences in a disarmed world.

Freedom from War (1961) State Department Publication 7277

109. Implementation of these priorities should lead to general and complete disarmament
under effective international control, which remains the ultimate goal of all efforts exert
ed in the field of disarmament.
...
111. General and complete disarmament under strict and effective international control
shall permit States to have at their disposal only those non-nuclear forces, armaments, facilities
and establishments as are agreed to be necessary to maintain internal order and protect the
personal security of citizens and in order that States shall support and provide agreed manpower
for a United Nations peace force.

http://www.un.org/disarmament/HomePage/SSOD/GA10thSpSes1rstSpSeson Disarmament.pdf
UNODA-GA Special Session on Disarmament

The ICDSD 2015 : XIII International Conference on Disarmament for Sustainable Development is the premier interdisciplinary forum for the presentation of new advances and research results in the fields of Disarmament for Sustainable Development. The conference will bring together leading academic scientists, researchers and scholars in the domain of interest from around the world. Topics of interest for submission include, but are not limited to:
...
Comprehensive programme of disarmament leading to general and complete disarmament under effective international control

The CD’s permanent agenda is known as the Decalogue and includes the following issues:
...
comprehensive programme of disarmament leading to general and complete disarmament under effective international control.
...
Because of the ambitious scope of the permanent agenda, each year a narrower agenda is adopted.

Conference on Disarmament (CD) | Treaties & Regimes | NTI

 

[Skinski7]

The Chinese economy is only dependent on the U.S. so long as the world still perceives the value of U.S. fiat dollars.

The U.S. in effect exchanges "instruments of debt" for "real wealth" in China. The only thing that keeps the ruse going is that China does not want to trash the "instruments of debt" it already owns which is what would occur if the U.S. dollar was treated as being worthless.

The current monetary system is unsustainable because it requires increasing levels of debt in order to pay for the perpetually compounding interest due to the compounding being exponential (ie. 1-2-4-8-16-32 etc.).

China may be accepting debt instruments now and in doing so hold a lien over real U.S. wealth (land and resources) via the purchasing power inherent in those debt instruments, yet the problem is that if China was to ever attempt to utilise that purchasing power in the U.S. the currency would collapse and thee debt instruments would be worth pennies on the dollar.

The U.S. dollar is on borrowed time, how long nobody knows but the music will stop at some stage and then suddenly the U.S. won't be able to in effect print itself into prosperity. China on the other hand will still be producing real tangible wealth which is what really matters and will be able to trade that wealth with others who do the same via whatever monetary unit has the confidence at the time.

 

[Skinski7]

Don't be so naive to think that China needs the U.S. to trade simply because Federal Reserve Notes are the defacto world currency.

Federal Reserve Notes are instruments of debt and any value they hold is only in perception.

 

[Lizathrose]

No government, no people supporting said government, can afford to allow a treasonous spy get away with espionage and two-year "vacation" in Moscow. If he wants to come home, let him surrender himself to the U.S. embassy there.

No credible evidence suggests that Edward Snowden was acting as an accomplice in any kind of espionage plot as you've implied. In fact, even the NSA asserts that no evidence exists to substantiate notions that Snowden was acting as a spy. Clearly, he was acting alone out of his own moral convictions. To quote the man himself,

I believe in the principle declared at Nuremberg in 1945: "Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience. Therefore, individual citizens have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring."

Please, stop throwing erroneous terms around in a hyperbolic manner. It's important to understand a given term before whimsically flaunting it. Espionage isn't automatically a valid qualifier because of charges against Snowden under the highly legally controversial 1917 Espionage Act, whose language is generally seen as vague and antiquated in a modern context. Moreover, Snowden certainly isn't a "spy" in any connotative or literal sense.

As far as the notion that "no people supporting a given government" can condone the unlawful disclosure of classified information, I'll merely reiterate that you should keep your hyperbole to a low roar. To date, there isn't any substantiated evidence that Snowden's leaks have been "gravely injurious" to US national security, and in fact, most of Snowden's leaks have little inherent relevance to national security as a whole. And, although it's certainly true that revelations concerning the NSA's cyber warfare and surveillance programs are damaging to the US image and its intelligence-gathering capabilities, many of the NSA's operations are legally dubious at best and unabashedly clandestine at worst.

 

[DesiredHaven]

God bless snowden

 

[Lizathrose]

God bless snowden

I tend to agree. Snowden's actions are inherently morally justifiable in light of the importance of his revelations and their benefit to the international stage as a whole. It's unfortunate that that the leaks were inherently clandestine and illegal, but at the very least, well-substantiated evidence of mass surveillance couldn't realistically have been obtained through any conventional means. The fact that various prominent global leaders and organizations, such as the former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, support Snowden's actions is uplifting.

Because of Snowden, concrete evidence -- not mere conspiratorial rhetoric -- of global mass surveillance exists, and the debate his actions raised is inherently, I believe, far more valuable than whatever (apparently negligible) harm his actions caused to US national security.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Your a real smart kid Lizathrose, your communications (as well as reasoning skills) exceed most of the eldest here.

Including me.

I want to adopt you (lol)

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

No credible evidence suggests that Edward Snowden was acting as an accomplice in any kind of espionage plot as you've implied.

Didn't use the word "accomplice." He illegally downloaded, stored as well as printed classified information, and removed it from the NSA building. That is, in fact, espionage.

In fact, even the NSA asserts that no evidence exists to substantiate notions that Snowden was acting as a spy.

Nice spin. In light of the facts, he is most definitely guilty of treason. Thinking it is OK to steal classified documents from NSA, regardless of how incriminating they are of our own government, is still treason any way you slice it.

Clearly, he was acting alone out of his own moral convictions.

Regardless of what platitudes he gave lip service to, a man truly acting out of "his own moral conviction" would be willing to face the consequences of his actions, and it is most obvious that goes against his selfish mindset of keeping his young butt out of prison.

He needs to come home, face the music, and tell us what else he's got so we can go after the bigger fish in this fry.

 

[Chainhand]

He needs to come home, face the music, and tell us what else he's got so we can go after the bigger fish in this fry.

Yes, I'm sure they'll turn themselves in. I'll wait right here.

 

[Chainhand]

Seriously though Viligant_Warrior, just for the sake of discussion, who are the bigger fish? We get it, Snowden is an evil man who is bent on destroying society through the use of encryption. But who are the bigger fish, and how do you plan on going after them?

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Yes, I'm sure they'll turn themselves in. I'll wait right here.

If he comes home, having surrendered himself, he'll be able to name names, produce documents, show evidence. Then they won't have to "turn themselves in."

Seriously though Viligant_Warrior, just for the sake of discussion, who are the bigger fish? We get it, Snowden is an evil man who is bent on destroying society through the use of encryption. But who are the bigger fish, and how do you plan on going after them?

Unless he comes home to stand trial, and talk -- having sent his evidence securely to his lawyers beforehand -- we can't "go after them." But if he'll surrender, we won't have to.

How hard is that to figure out?

 

[Chainhand]

I'm sure they will be given as fair of a trial as he will.

Do you always make a habit of ignoring the "bigger fish" (your words) until the small fish are taken care of?

Actually, that makes sense... the military has a history of slaughtering tens of thousands of draftees to spite people like Ho Chi Minh. Kind of a game they play with lives.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Do you always make a habit of ignoring the "bigger fish" (your words) until the small fish are taken care of?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, but it isn't "ignoring the 'bigger fish' " -- it is getting the right bait. Ever hear of "bait"? The best bait is a minnow, a small fish used to catch the bigger ones like trout, bass, and catfish.

How do they bring down the big drug kingpins? By arresting the users, flipping them in order to get their suppliers, whom they then flip to get to the intermediate level distributors, who finally are flipped to get the traffickers.

Snowden's the small fry who, if he will "flip" -- turn himself in -- will trip up the bigger fish.

 

[royalscot]

Yes, as a matter of fact I do, but it isn't "ignoring the 'bigger fish' " -- it is getting the right bait. Ever hear of "bait"? The best bait is a minnow, a small fish used to catch the bigger ones like trout, bass, and catfish.

How do they bring down the big drug kingpins? By arresting the users, flipping them in order to get their suppliers, whom they then flip to get to the intermediate level distributors, who finally are flipped to get the traffickers.

Snowden's the small fry who, if he will "flip" -- turn himself in -- will trip up the bigger fish.

is the big fish,that chainhand pointing to, the governments of spy games , and how it affects, the small fish.

fighting crime is only an excuse, to why they have spy games, look to there justification, to why, its being done in the first place. is this opening a bigger problems, that in time, will prove harmful to all spy game worker, not just crime fighters.
in short, the plot thickens.

 

[Lizathrose]

Snowden's the small fry who, if he will "flip" -- turn himself in -- will trip up the bigger fish.

What are you even talking about? To reiterate, Snowden's actions clearly don't suggest that he was in any way acting as an accomplice for an entity other than the general international public, and nothing beyond pointless speculation can be inferred from his temporary residence in Russia. There isn't a "bigger fish" in Snowden's case, as far as all available evidence and the admission of the US government itself is concerned. In the eyes of the NSA, he is the "big fish." Pointing out a single method used to occasionally bust drug kingpins simply isn't relevant or applicable at all in Snowden's case.

There's also a misconception you have with respect to the nature of Snowden's acts. A distinction exists between espionage, which entails clandestine activities for an entity that typically involve illicitly obtaining information, and whistleblowing. Snowden had access to such information through a broad, valid security clearance that he used to expose wrongdoings in the public interest; thus, he didn't "illegally obtain" information that he already had access to -- he illegally distributed it. Distribution is another matter entirely, and hence, referring to his actions as a manifestation of espionage is both erroneous and superfluous, albeit vaguely applicable in your defense in light of the overtly broad and arguably quite arbitrary 1917 Espionage Act. Snowden didn't automatically become a "spy" after deciding leak incriminating information -- he became a whistleblower.

 

[Lizathrose]

Nice spin. In light of the facts, he is most definitely guilty of treason. Thinking it is OK to steal classified documents from NSA, regardless of how incriminating they are of our own government, is still treason any way you slice it.

Except it really, really isn't, since the legal consensus concerning whistleblowing in Edward Snowden's case is divided, specifically with respect to formal, long-standing criticisms of the 1917 Espionage Act for which various prosecutions have arbitrarily failed in certain past cases while succeeding in others. The conflicting patchwork of whistleblower protection laws in the United States hardly serve to ameliorate this controversy.

In spite of the ease with which it could be argued that Snowden's actions are anything but treasonous for a wide, compelling variety of reasons entailing public interest, domestic and international responsibilities that transcend contemporary legal vows and oaths, and the simple fact that it wouldn't have been practically possible under any scenario to legally expose the extent of the NSA's surveillance programs, you stubbornly (and, in many respects, erroneously) continue to perceive him as a "spy" and a traitor.

Still, if you'd like to insist that he committed treason under the laughably vague, antiquated language of the Espionage Act, I suppose I can't argue. Technically, I suppose it could be argued that Snowden committed treason under an inherently unfair law that makes no provisions whatsoever for well-intentioned whistleblowers operating in the best interest of the general public and their respective country.