Judging Salvation by "Faith" or "Fruits"

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EmethAlethia

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2014
255
30
28
#1
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,426
3,515
113
#2
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
There are many many different beliefs and understanding within Christianity but God counts the heart not what denomination or interpretation you believe many so called Christians do not fail as Christians due to their core beliefs because most at the very least trust Jesus as their savior that is what saves them but many do fail in tghe fruits area that is what will condemn them not which sect of Christianity they reside in.
The fruits are a exact representation of the heart and without good fruits which is spoken of many times in scripture our faith is dddead empty void garbage this is why love is such a focused aspect of the believer because without love there are no fruits to be had as long as one has love in their hearts then it doesn't matter what sect they are in or what their understanding beliefs are within Christianity because love will always leadd one to the truth and that will always lead to Jesus himself

As fior the question on how would I respondd? I trust in Jesus Christ
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
113
#3
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
God brings everyone to see and choose to either believe God or not and then each go do as they each believe, such as to self for self gains here and now, with using truth of God and yet not believing themselves, God knows, I rest in that alone, putting no faith in me or others ever Phil 3:1-20
I see we all start out as religious nuts. God will take everything good or bad and use it to teach us in his freedom to choose given us to become Spiritual fruit eventually. I started out a Nut
Like an Oak Tree, that began as a Nut, which stood its ground, now known as the "Mighty Oak Tree"
God does not cause or create any evil, will use it to teach us new and how to not let it get the best of us each and we then grow spiritual fruit as Paul in Jail did that. When he saw the Jail help come to belief too, when he did not complain over his present situation, he remained in Faith to God. Now put you in that place and see why they chose to believe, seeing Paul not complain or try to even escape. That is not natural is it?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
113
#4
There are many many different beliefs and understanding within Christianity but God counts the heart not what denomination or interpretation you believe many so called Christians do not fail as Christians due to their core beliefs because most at the very least trust Jesus as their savior that is what saves them but many do fail in tghe fruits area that is what will condemn them not which sect of Christianity they reside in.
The fruits are a exact representation of the heart and without good fruits which is spoken of many times in scripture our faith is dddead empty void garbage this is why love is such a focused aspect of the believer because without love there are no fruits to be had as long as one has love in their hearts then it doesn't matter what sect they are in or what their understanding beliefs are within Christianity because love will always leadd one to the truth and that will always lead to Jesus himself

As fior the question on how would I respondd? I trust in Jesus Christ
It is great to hear from you in your contentment Brother, thank you
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
6,086
1,213
113
USA-TX
#5
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
Humans can only discern based on biblical parameters regarding behavior or works.
Only God can judge because He has perfect knowledge of everyone’s thoughts and true motives.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,426
3,515
113
#6
God brings everyone to see and choose to either believe God or not and then each go do as they each believe, such as to self for self gains here and now, with using truth of God and yet not believing themselves, God knows, I rest in that alone, putting no faith in me or others ever Phil 3:1-20
I see we all start out as religious nuts. God will take everything good or bad and use it to teach us in his freedom to choose given us to become Spiritual fruit eventually. I started out a Nut
Like an Oak Tree, that began as a Nut, which stood its ground, now known as the "Mighty Oak Tree"
God does not cause or create any evil, will use it to teach us new and how to not let it get the best of us each and we then grow spiritual fruit as Paul in Jail did that. When he saw the Jail help come to belief too, when he did not complain over his present situation, he remained in Faith to God. Now put you in that place and see why they chose to believe, seeing Paul not complain or try to even escape. That is not natural is it?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
16,184
6,523
113
#7
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
Good post .

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2-6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;

whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
113
#8
Good post .

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2-6‬ ‭NIV‬‬

“Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God;

whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Truth from God wins, won by Son first for us people to love all, regardless of what another does or doesn't do.
We love now presently, daily, because he loved us first. Next, Lord thank you, 1 John 4:18-19, Psalm 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26, Hebrews 7:11-12, 9:14-17
Gift, can not be earned, cannot be maintain by any flesh work. I now see this after under Law first for many years to learn from, and am still learning thank you Brother
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
113
#9
Humans can only discern based on biblical parameters regarding behavior or works.
Only God can judge because He has perfect knowledge of everyone’s thoughts and true motives.
How, about hearing from God in us personally, where truth wins from God for each of us born new by God in risen Son?. I know there is a battle between good and evil. Evil lost. And I know about evil acting as if good
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Do you by chance, know this is going on still, evil presents itself as good, and is not

I one day saw a grove of fruit trees, and excited I was, I went out to eat from them each and all at once, over zealous. I got a mouth full of wax. Then stuck around, trying to adapt, and got chewed on, beat on and ridiculed over what others think I should do and how I should be, anyone else? I bet as well, have, puT NO TRUST IN SELF OR anyone else!
Anyways, I kept seeing one little fruit tree with one fruit on it. I did not want to take that only piece of fruit and so I did not. Yet kept being drawn back to it to eat it. I couldn't, being the only fruit on it. Then after being still drawn to eat from it, I finally did. I watched it grow a new fruit on it immediately. No mouth full of wax, not, unsatisfied anymore, now satisfied, even in being poor, sick or lame or in jail, mattered not anymore
Learned contentment in all things and learning this learned daily, taking one day at a time
Thanks to You Father and Son as One for us to have won with you by you for you, woe is me still Isaiah 6:1-7
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
2,257
1,084
113
#10
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians.
Matthew 7

7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? …
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
6,086
1,213
113
USA-TX
#11
How, about hearing from God in us personally, where truth wins from God for each of us born new by God in risen Son?. I know there is a battle between good and evil. Evil lost. And I know about evil acting as if good
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Do you by chance, know this is going on still, evil presents itself as good, and is not

I one day saw a grove of fruit trees, and excited I was, I went out to eat from them each and all at once, over zealous. I got a mouth full of wax. Then stuck around, trying to adapt, and got chewed on, beat on and ridiculed over what others think I should do and how I should be, anyone else? I bet as well, have, puT NO TRUST IN SELF OR anyone else!
Anyways, I kept seeing one little fruit tree with one fruit on it. I did not want to take that only piece of fruit and so I did not. Yet kept being drawn back to it to eat it. I couldn't, being the only fruit on it. Then after being still drawn to eat from it, I finally did. I watched it grow a new fruit on it immediately. No mouth full of wax, not, unsatisfied anymore, now satisfied, even in being poor, sick or lame or in jail, mattered not anymore
Learned contentment in all things and learning this learned daily, taking one day at a time
Thanks to You Father and Son as One for us to have won with you by you for you, woe is me still Isaiah 6:1-7
The way God speaks to us personally is via Scripture taught by the HS per John 16:12-15, Matt. 4:4 & 7, 2Tim. 3:15-17.
Any/all insights we have should agree with GW, especially in the NT.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
16,184
6,523
113
#12
Truth from God wins, won by Son first for us people to love all, regardless of what another does or doesn't do.
We love now presently, daily, because he loved us first. Next, Lord thank you, 1 John 4:18-19, Psalm 100:4, 103:12 Ezekiel 36:26, Hebrews 7:11-12, 9:14-17
Gift, can not be earned, cannot be maintain by any flesh work. I now see this after under Law first for many years to learn from, and am still learning thank you Brother
“Truth from God wins,”

yes sir the truth from God wins

“For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24-26‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

truth of God makes us free

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Truth from God give life and quickens those fast asleep

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

The truth of God overcomes death

The truth from God will judge us if we reject it

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the truth from god offers eternal life

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

At that day ye shall know that

I am in my Father,

and ye in me,

and I in you.


He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7, 15-17, 20-21, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man was corrupted and led astray with a lie and we are redeemed by the truth
 

Hakawaka

Well-known member
Jul 1, 2021
556
319
63
#13
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
Very good post. Thanks for this. I have been saying this so many times on this forum and in real life. People are obsessed about various doctrines and think believing a checklist of things counts as living faith that will save them.

Unfortunately the Bible does not portray it that way, faith is believing in Jesus and doing what He says. If Jesus tells you to start a soup kitchen in Tokyo, you better do it.

The churches are full of people who fornicate on saturday and go to church on sunday and praise the Lord for His grace. This is why I learned a long time ago, the churchianity cult is something one must flee immediately. The churches these days are ruined. Ecumenical, wishy washy entertainment centers. They are of the world, and speak like the world and act like the world.

We must all, push ahead, put out hands to the plow and not look back.

"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? "
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,922
7,004
113
#14
Does faith alone save? Yes. Is faith without works/fruits stillborn, i.e. a birth that produces no life? Yes.

According to Mat. 7, almost all professing “Christians” aren’t Christians. Jesus NEVER knew them. The vast masses, headed for destruction, the “Many” who will never see life vss. 13-14, whom Jesus never knew, who are still considered workers of lawlessness vs. 23 who believe Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, even with the exact same signs, wonders and miracles performed by the true Christians of the 1st century, will never see the kingdom of heaven. vs. 21.

As a matter of fact, the word used to describe the “Way” or “Path” that leads to life means ongoing tribulation (As in the Great Tribulation), ongoing anguish, ongoing affliction, … in 98% of the places it is used throughout the Septuagint and the New Testament, making the “few”, out of the vast masses of people who will find the path that leads to life even smaller than most believe.

Since there are 45,000 different belief groups within Christianity, all with differing and conflicting core beliefs, (Or they’d be in each other’s belief group), and the percentage of true Christians, vs. those who are still lost and headed for hell in spite of their beliefs, the question is, who, within those 45,000 different beliefs groups, has the faith that results in salvation.

Oddly, few “Christians” ever seriously consider the issue. But think about it. How do all the belief groups, Christian or not, determine if others love truth and believe the truth? How do the Atheists judge this? Do you believe God doesn’t exist? Do you believe we evolved? Do you believe the universe is billions of years old, or older? If you do, you are in. How about Mormons? Do God was as man now is, and you can become as God is now? If so, you are pretty close. Jehovah’s Witnesses, Roman Catholics, … pick your group. How does your church determine who is accepted as a member or is baptized? By the alignment of the person seeking membership with the “beliefs” or “faith” (Same word in Greek) with those of whichever of the 45,000 different belief groups you are a part of, does it not? Think about it. What questions were asked when you sought to become a member of your local body?

But should we be examining the salvation of ourselves and others at all? Isn’t questioning our salvation contrary to faith? Not at all. As a matter of fact Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they are indeed in the faith, or if they fail the test, is automatic proof that we know we fail the test. 2Co. 13:5-6. And he does exactly that himself in 2Co. 11:13-15. But did I not say examining whether or not wee are true Christians based on our beliefs, and those of the people in the belief group we are in is worthless, because everyone passes their own “belief” test? Yes I did. And God agrees. Those judging salvation, or alignment with truth, by the alignment of their beliefs with any of the 45,000 different “Christian” belief groups, or those of the 10,000 different non-Christian belief groups have absolutely no understanding of how to get to truth/salvation at all. 2Co. 10-12

So, if judging is commanded, and those unwilling to keep on examining themselves and others to see if they / we are truly in the faith or not by our professed “faith” proves we lack any understanding at all of the topic of getting to truth/salvation, what standard does the word of God say all true Christians should be using? As a matter of fact, it doesn’t “say” we should be using this standard, Jesus warns true Christians to be using this standard. Mat. 7:15-20 We are to judge ourselves and others based on the ongoing habitual fruits God says are always true of true Christians, and always true of those who believe they are true Christians, but are still lost and headed for destruction. And no true Christian ever has the “Fruits” of those who believe they are but are still lost, and no “lost” “Christian” ever possesses the fruits of those whose “faith” truly saves them.

Keep in mind, almost all people who profess saving faith fail the “Fruits” tests. Jesus says so. An agonizingly small percentage of those who believe they are true Christians, and believe they have “Saving Faith” really do have it. Since Paul states those unwilling to keep on examining themselves, and others to see if they truly are in the faith “Unless indeed you are failing the test” (Present Tense indicating ongoing never ceasing activity) being unwilling to figure out these “Fruits” and examining ourselves and others based on them would indeed be a “Fruit” of the lost, and being in the ongoing process of figuring out these “Fruits” and checking ourselves, and other “professing” Christians against these “Fruits” would be a “Fruit” of those headed towards salvation.

Mat. 7 has a number of additional “fruits” listed in it as well. We have Jesus’ command to judge ourselves 1st, and correct our responses in vs. 1-5, then we have the standard to judge ourselves 1st by, correct our own responses, and then judge others by, along with the command to stop sharing when we see the incorrect responses in vs. 6. Then we have the opposite responses from those in Mat. 7:6, in vs. 7:7-12. And, guess what? If you look at what this ongoing seeking, knocking, asking, … that never stops till the day you die results in (Present Tense) in the parallel passage in Luke 11:9-13, what are those whose responses when people share their spiritual pearls/what is holy who diligently keep on seeking, knocking, asking, … EVENTUALLY receive … “If” they never stop? The Holy Spirit, right? Who gets the Holy Spirit?

If you are wondering why people who believe themselves to be Christians will fail to obey Mat. 7:1-5 1st and then correct their responses, and would also want to tear those sharing their pearls with them, and what is holy with them, and who would trample what is shared under foot Mat. 7:6 when it is shared, think about the topic of all of Mat. 7. The vast masses of people within the 45,000 different belief groups who are still lost, headed for destruction, who are wolves in sheep’s clothing, who will never see the kingdom of heaven, whom Jesus NEVER knew, who are still considered workers of iniquity, who do not hear “These words of Mine” (In this passage.) and are not habitually obeying them. If I share that you are one of these vast masses of people who believe they are true Christians, but who fall in this category, in spite of your beliefs, in spite of your signs, wonders and miracles, and that you are just as lost and headed for hell as the non-Christians are, what do you think the likelihood of seeing the responses listed in Mat. 7:6 will be for most professing Christians?

But then, these are Jesus’ words, and the likelihood of my own failing of the “Fruits” tests is extremely small. Noone who is still lost and headed for hell, even amongst the 45,000 different belief groups in “Christianity” will ever have a clue that they fail the test. After all, they all pass the tests of having the correct beliefs. All the religious leaders of each of the 45,000 different belief groups agrees with the data they have collected to prove their beliefs true and all opposing beliefs false. After all, all of our highly trained and educated religious leaders and experts can’t be wrong, right? According to Jesus, almost all of them are wrong, in spite of their “beliefs”, because they themselves fail the “Fruits” tests.

The question is? How will you respond?
Fruits (good works) are a result of Faith (salvation). Works can not save anyone. If that were so, then it would have not been necessary to replace the 1st Covenant (Law) with the New Covenant (Grace through Faith).

Are Christians suppose to do good works? Yes. All who God saved were saved for a purpose. The purpose He purposed them for. Jesus said "If you love me, you would obey me."

People love to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and then leave it at that. However, verse 10 is the resulting point of 8 and 9.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#15
Fruits (good works) are a result of Faith (salvation). Works can not save anyone. If that were so, then it would have not been necessary to replace the 1st Covenant (Law) with the New Covenant (Grace through Faith).

Are Christians suppose to do good works? Yes. All who God saved were saved for a purpose. The purpose He purposed them for. Jesus said "If you love me, you would obey me."

People love to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 and then leave it at that. However, verse 10 is the resulting point of 8 and 9.

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
“Fruits (good works) are a result of Faith (salvation). Works can not save anyone. If that were so, then it would have not been necessary to replace the 1st Covenant (Law) with the New Covenant (Grace through Faith).”


“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( that’s how the gospel saves us )

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; ( Jesus teaches his disciples in the gospel to wait for his return )

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. ( the gospel teaches this to believers )

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

grace isn’t the reason we don’t need to do good works it’s the means by which we can

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if we don’t ?
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
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#16
The way God speaks to us personally is via Scripture taught by the HS per John 16:12-15, Matt. 4:4 & 7, 2Tim. 3:15-17.
Any/all insights we have should agree with GW, especially in the NT.
Agreed, there truth from it that God only knows over us the people, at least me. God is the God of the living, to go to the Bible, God knows the truth such as in Hebrews 6:3 got interpreted as "IF" when in truth it means Since God will permit. Yet when read "IF" God will permit leaves doubt in people as religion steps in and states things like you should or you better, flesh attitudes like in the book of Job, those world counselors, claiming to be of God, causing harm, not good for my Soul, I can only speak me, and what I hear my, your Father say
Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isaiah 7:9
And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah’s son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established.
Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Isaiah 16:5
And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
Isaiah 54:14
In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

Do you see all that is now done in Son, for us to get established to Father by Faith, trust?
He is risen where this new life starts and we begin to see new and do new in God's Spirit and Truth, John 4:23-24, John 19:30, John 1:29
We, at least me am no longer under Law to get or to be in or even stay in, I am in, upholding Law as good and perfect, so are all who Father reveals this truth to them too, those that will not deny God as Job did not deny God throughout that book of Job, loving the last Chapter, thanks to God only thank you Father and Son as Won (One) for us all to enter by God Father's gift, then no more work(s) of self, yet works still go on through these new born again people, it is the done work of God only!
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
113
#17
“Truth from God wins,”

yes sir the truth from God wins

“For the law was given by Moses,

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24-26‬ ‭

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

truth of God makes us free

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Truth from God give life and quickens those fast asleep

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

The truth of God overcomes death

The truth from God will judge us if we reject it

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the truth from god offers eternal life

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

At that day ye shall know that

I am in my Father,

and ye in me,

and I in you.


He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-7, 15-17, 20-21, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Man was corrupted and led astray with a lie and we are redeemed by the truth
Thanking Father, Son and you, for this post in truth of God for us all to be new in love and mercy as given first
We Love, because God first loved us 1 John 4:18-19
 

Intersection

Well-known member
Dec 12, 2024
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#18
Thanking Father, Son and you, for this post in truth of God for us all to be new in love and mercy as given first
We Love, because God first loved us 1 John 4:18-19
Only the elect are even born-again.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
16,184
6,523
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#19
Thanking Father, Son and you, for this post in truth of God for us all to be new in love and mercy as given first
We Love, because God first loved us 1 John 4:18-19
“We Love, because God first loved us”

amen look what John was teaching just before saying that in 1 John ….

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but does nothing to help them, how can the love of God be in that person?

Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence:”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:16-19‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
18,093
871
113
#20
Only the elect are even born-again.
Yet, all by God are called to choose to believe God or not, Me seeing to not be a Pharisee, Luke 18:9-14 I, see they were not fair you see! I stand in trust to God to get through to each and so I see all will choose consciously in belief to Father in risen Son or not, thank you Father for taking so long, wanting no one to perish, which I see as true Love for all, from you in risen Son for us all to agree with you in love and mercy given us through Son's death first, Then new life in the risen Son, where I can't help and now love all as is done by Son first on that cross, wow, woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7
Thank you Father and Son