Does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all men without exception ?
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I think part of this fallacy sadly being pushed on us in wrong interpretation of Scripture is that it obscures the fact that our Lord actually changed the course of history and the creation replacing Adam.1 and undoing all of what he did and caused.
This limited scope in a way seems to deny in essence the fact that the creation was turned back to what it was originally intended to be. The victory was "finished". This already and not yet fact in Spirit and Truth not being seen yet is providing time for the volitional separation of men to and from God who does not desire that any man perish.
His victory was far from limited.
This limited scope in a way seems to deny in essence the fact that the creation was turned back to what it was originally intended to be. The victory was "finished". This already and not yet fact in Spirit and Truth not being seen yet is providing time for the volitional separation of men to and from God who does not desire that any man perish.
His victory was far from limited.
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I'm more at issue with people misrepresenting God with their false doctrine because their false doctrine makes God look partial to offering salvation to just some and making Him unloving and unjust to everyone else. And I really do take issue with that because God is the most wonderful person I've ever gotten to know - and I THANK HIM all the time for preventing these people to come at me with their false doctrine when I was just getting to know Him. I really love God and how he offers His salvation to anyone who wants it - can you imagine the heartbreak if I heard that God only offered His salvation to only some and not to all when I was seeking Him out?!?? I would have been devastated!
I also want to post an article about The Consequences of Misrepresenting God:
Topical Encyclopedia
Misrepresenting God is a serious offense in the biblical narrative, carrying significant consequences for individuals and communities. The Bible provides numerous examples and teachings that highlight the gravity of this sin, emphasizing the importance of accurately reflecting God's character and commands.
Old Testament Examples
One of the earliest instances of misrepresenting God is found in the account of Moses at Meribah. In Numbers 20:7-12, God instructs Moses to speak to the rock to bring forth water for the Israelites. However, Moses strikes the rock twice with his staff, saying, "Listen now, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" (Numbers 20:10). By doing so, Moses misrepresents God's instructions and takes credit for the miracle. As a consequence, God tells Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust Me enough to honor Me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this assembly into the land I have given them" (Numbers 20:12).
The account of the false prophets in the Old Testament further illustrates the consequences of misrepresenting God. In Jeremiah 23:16-17, God warns the people not to listen to the prophets who speak visions from their own minds rather than from the mouth of the Lord. These prophets lead the people astray, promising peace when there is no peace. God declares that He will punish these prophets for their deceit and for causing His people to err (Jeremiah 23:30-32).
New Testament Teachings
In the New Testament, Jesus addresses the issue of misrepresenting God through the religious leaders of His time. In Matthew 23, Jesus pronounces a series of woes upon the scribes and Pharisees for their hypocrisy and for leading people away from the true understanding of God's law. He accuses them of shutting the kingdom of heaven in people's faces and of being blind guides (Matthew 23:13-16). Their misrepresentation of God's will results in spiritual blindness and judgment.
The apostle Paul also warns against misrepresenting God in his letters. In Galatians 1:6-9, Paul expresses astonishment that the Galatians are turning to a different gospel, which is no gospel at all. He warns that anyone preaching a gospel contrary to the one they received should be accursed. This underscores the seriousness of distorting the message of God and the dire consequences for those who do so.
Theological Implications
Misrepresenting God not only leads to personal consequences but also affects the community of believers. It can result in confusion, division, and a departure from true worship. The Bible emphasizes the need for leaders and teachers to handle the word of truth accurately (2 Timothy 2:15) and to be examples to the flock (1 Peter 5:3).
The consequences of misrepresenting God serve as a sobering reminder of the responsibility entrusted to those who speak on His behalf. The biblical narrative consistently calls for faithfulness, integrity, and humility in representing God's character and His message to the world.
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Because you don't understand God's Grace because you're inserting erroneous theology into the Text.
If you understood God and characteristics and behaviors such as His Grace, you might be further along in ability to see how the correct interpretation of the Rom5 Scriptures under discussion conform to how vast His Grace and His Love are.
Honestly, your inability to see the flow of reasoning in those verses based in some very simple and clear grammar and logic, coupled with your defamation of fellow Christians as a pseudo-argumentative technique make you someone to not take at all serious.
I just posted something similar to one of your reformed friends. I've modified the query to fit this discussion. I'm letting AI - Copilot do the legwork since it takes me more time and effort, and it's better versed than I in such things:
Query: fallacious argument that says accepting unlimited atonement vs. limited atonement is due to not understanding God's Grace.
Answer: That’s a sharp observation. The claim that someone only affirms unlimited atonement because they “don’t understand God’s grace” is not just dismissive—it’s logically flawed and theologically shallow. Let’s unpack the fallacies baked into that argument:
🧠 1. Ad Hominem (Attacking the Person)
If you understood God and characteristics and behaviors such as His Grace, you might be further along in ability to see how the correct interpretation of the Rom5 Scriptures under discussion conform to how vast His Grace and His Love are.
Honestly, your inability to see the flow of reasoning in those verses based in some very simple and clear grammar and logic, coupled with your defamation of fellow Christians as a pseudo-argumentative technique make you someone to not take at all serious.
I just posted something similar to one of your reformed friends. I've modified the query to fit this discussion. I'm letting AI - Copilot do the legwork since it takes me more time and effort, and it's better versed than I in such things:
Query: fallacious argument that says accepting unlimited atonement vs. limited atonement is due to not understanding God's Grace.
Answer: That’s a sharp observation. The claim that someone only affirms unlimited atonement because they “don’t understand God’s grace” is not just dismissive—it’s logically flawed and theologically shallow. Let’s unpack the fallacies baked into that argument:
🧠 1. Ad Hominem (Attacking the Person)
- Instead of engaging the theological reasoning behind unlimited atonement, the argument attacks the person’s spiritual insight or grasp of grace.
- It implies that disagreement stems from ignorance or deficiency, rather than sincere study or conviction.
- The conclusion doesn’t follow from the premise. Believing Christ died for all doesn’t logically mean one misunderstands grace.
- In fact, many who affirm unlimited atonement do so because they see it as the fullest expression of God’s gracious will toward all (cf. 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9).
- It assumes that limited atonement is the correct view of grace, and then uses that assumption to discredit other views.
- But that’s precisely what’s under debate. The nature of grace and its scope are the very issues being discussed.
- It misrepresents the unlimited atonement position as if it denies the depth or efficacy of grace.
- In reality, proponents often affirm that Christ’s atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for those who believe—without denying divine sovereignty.
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Romans 3
There is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE. 10
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 23
The big problem with most preachers and catholic priests is that they mislead others to think that a person becomes just / righteous by behavioral changes or good works as the objects of their faith. This is the same false gospel that Jesus and the apostles warned against.
We are all as an unclean thing and
All of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
Isaiah
That's how God sees our righteousnesses (all of them) when they are misapplied as conditions of salvation. They are worth unclean lepers rags or dirty diapers.
Then people think they can throw those at the cross as if Jesus did not do enough.
NOT by works of righteousness which WE HAVE DONE....
Titus 3:5
John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Friend, This short explanation < might be a blessing. I hope so.
Believe, believe, believe on Jesus alone and reject those filthy rags.
Only then can call upon Him for the free gift that He already purchased .
There is NONE righteous, NO NOT ONE. 10
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. 23
The big problem with most preachers and catholic priests is that they mislead others to think that a person becomes just / righteous by behavioral changes or good works as the objects of their faith. This is the same false gospel that Jesus and the apostles warned against.
We are all as an unclean thing and
All of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
Isaiah
That's how God sees our righteousnesses (all of them) when they are misapplied as conditions of salvation. They are worth unclean lepers rags or dirty diapers.
Then people think they can throw those at the cross as if Jesus did not do enough.
NOT by works of righteousness which WE HAVE DONE....
Titus 3:5
John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Friend, This short explanation < might be a blessing. I hope so.
Believe, believe, believe on Jesus alone and reject those filthy rags.
Only then can call upon Him for the free gift that He already purchased .
@HealthAndHappiness
I dont see anything about believing in Rom 5:18 thats not how the all received Justification of Life. How did they receive it according Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
I dont see anything about believing in Rom 5:18 thats not how the all received Justification of Life. How did they receive it according Rom 5:18
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Exactly, You dont see anything about believing or anything about not believing in Rom 5:18 as all it is saying is by one offence (Adam) came death, and by one righteous person (Christ) came the gift of life, oh and I nearly forgot the caveat included here, this is death and life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
You know even so. or likewise, or in the same manner, correspondingly, by the same token. something that parallels something.
If brightfame sends out 1000 invitations for his birthday, and only 100 people arrive to eat the fabulous cake you made, and your uncle says where is everyone else I thought old Jim would be here? you are the obviously the type to turn around and say nah he obviously didnt get the invite, for if I invited him he would be here eating my lovely cake and drinking my lovely punch!
Just because some chose to do other things does not mean they all were not invited for free cake.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
You know even so. or likewise, or in the same manner, correspondingly, by the same token. something that parallels something.
If brightfame sends out 1000 invitations for his birthday, and only 100 people arrive to eat the fabulous cake you made, and your uncle says where is everyone else I thought old Jim would be here? you are the obviously the type to turn around and say nah he obviously didnt get the invite, for if I invited him he would be here eating my lovely cake and drinking my lovely punch!
Just because some chose to do other things does not mean they all were not invited for free cake.
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So for me what stood out.. seemed off is " In fact, to the spiritually discerning it teaches the contrary," then we keep reading .. "or that Christ did not die for all men without exception, simply because the all men here that Justification of life came upon is limited to only some men, so the word all can only apply to all that received upon them Justification of life. "
Rom 8.. no where did it say this. Your telling us it says that because "to the spiritually discerning it teaches" Ouch. I know a group that believes like this I kindly do not agree. It would have been better to say "No by no means does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all without exception and heres why I believe that".
When I was young.. young there was no Internet no computers cell phones no other groups to tell me this or that.. I was thing about the lost and going to hell I asked Him how can you send all those people to hell? Never expected hearing Him.. He said "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice". That right there is written. For who so ever believes. Him shouting crying in the streets Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest."
I watched this preacher today never seen him before... he was on fire.. and it lol really great. I liked what he did. He used allot of scripture and then said "now you decide". He shared what he believed yet knew some might not agree. Were not talking Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by Him. We can all make that statement. This here is just a doctrine if you will by another group.. I could be wrong
Rom 8.. no where did it say this. Your telling us it says that because "to the spiritually discerning it teaches" Ouch. I know a group that believes like this I kindly do not agree. It would have been better to say "No by no means does Rom 5:18 teach that Christ died for all without exception and heres why I believe that".
When I was young.. young there was no Internet no computers cell phones no other groups to tell me this or that.. I was thing about the lost and going to hell I asked Him how can you send all those people to hell? Never expected hearing Him.. He said "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice". That right there is written. For who so ever believes. Him shouting crying in the streets Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest."
I watched this preacher today never seen him before... he was on fire.. and it lol really great. I liked what he did. He used allot of scripture and then said "now you decide". He shared what he believed yet knew some might not agree. Were not talking Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by Him. We can all make that statement. This here is just a doctrine if you will by another group.. I could be wrong
The Mormons last week told me that their prophet's gospel is to "repent of your sins", baptism in water, restitution (basically their repentance), loving Jesus and keeping all of the commandments.
Because of answers I heard like this all my life, I decided to look it up for myself.
The Law, prophets, poetic books, gospels through the epistles to Revelation were written to those who were God's people. The one book addressed to the lost is the gospel of John.
27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
There is an appropriate Biblical response in this gospel given to them.
Do you know what it is and how many times it was written?
Second point:
Looking at the context of the chapter, Paul is not emphasizing faith or believing. He is emphasizing that the Romans salvation is the free gift of God's grace based upon the atonement.
Then in Matthew 24, I was reflecting on God's wrath another day. Then the Holy Spirit brought to mind John 3:36 that I think I posted previously. Then I opened only one page to Romans 5 and He placed my eyes immediately on vs 9. I'll post 8 too for context.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
In John 3, we are told how to be delivered from wrath and condemnation. Do you remember what words were used?
Looking at the context of the chapter, Paul is not emphasizing faith or believing. He is emphasizing that the Romans salvation is the free gift of God's grace based upon the atonement.
Then in Matthew 24, I was reflecting on God's wrath another day. Then the Holy Spirit brought to mind John 3:36 that I think I posted previously. Then I opened only one page to Romans 5 and He placed my eyes immediately on vs 9. I'll post 8 too for context.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
In John 3, we are told how to be delivered from wrath and condemnation. Do you remember what words were used?
Continued fallacious argument which is common practice among those who can't support their theories or read in context. It's interesting to watch how such people work and completely ignore how poor and fallacious are their arguments.
BTW, receiving is an active verb - in this case an active substantival participle, which in form in its occurrences in the Text looks to always mean a person(s) who actively takes hold of something. As I pointed out earlier, lexically it can also trend into and is identified as meaning to choose.
The scoffing is at your interpretation and poor argumentation, but I think there must be some small part of you that knows this. It's the lack of introspection and caring that is concerning.
BTW, receiving is an active verb - in this case an active substantival participle, which in form in its occurrences in the Text looks to always mean a person(s) who actively takes hold of something. As I pointed out earlier, lexically it can also trend into and is identified as meaning to choose.
The scoffing is at your interpretation and poor argumentation, but I think there must be some small part of you that knows this. It's the lack of introspection and caring that is concerning.
Yes, with good reason. No-one can believe or not believe apart from grace and truth and man can do nothing about taking away his own sin so if God doesn't do it then unbelievers are stuck. It wouldn't matter whether they wanted to believe or not because they're in a catch 22 without God's justice and mercy dealing with sin The barrier would remain, in belief or unbelief. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us Rom.5:8. He didn't remove our sin after we believed, He nailed it to the Cross Col.2:14 so in believing we could have eternal life.
