Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Ah, my apologies, as the elect and foreknowledge of God are mentioned in verse one. I can well imagine what you are going to say next, about how the elect are Jews, as if nothing said of Jews applies to others. How nobody is ever chosen by God and it is never by the foreknowledge of God, will that be your next assertion? Oh, but you are one of the special ones are you not? A Hebrew roots person? Yes, I get it it. Everything is always only about such people, and the rest be damned. I understand. It is about nations, some say. Oh, really? Then Jacob and Esau enter the convo. I do understand that Jacob and Esau represent nations, but it is not really about nations. More about how people are grouped, and according to Scripture it boils down to believers and unbelievers, true Israel being spiritual descendants of Abraham whose offspring number greater than the grains of sand and stars in the sky, those who will escape the second death, and unbelievers as represented by Easu, Edomites, enemies of God, unbelievers... those who will suffer the second death. Or will you tell me you were not personally chosen? Do you think you are saved because of your physical earthly heritage? I hope not.
From Galatians 4:22-24 plus 28-29 and 5:1 Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise. These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery. We, like Isaac, are children of promise. The son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.
From Galatians 4:22-24 plus 28-29 and 5:1 Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise. These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery. We, like Isaac, are children of promise. The son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.
So that means God needed to make a lineage that would go throughout humanity until Jesus time [which is part of God's Plan] be fulfilled.
Throughout the Old Testament we see the survival of this lineage happening until Mary gives birth. All of it was foreknowledge and predestined of and by God.
Great example of the Fallacy of Equivalency which Megenta recently wrote about either in this thread or in another one. Tell, me, CV, do dogs and cats exercise free will to make choices contrary to their natures? And are dogs and cats moral/spiritual entities? And are dogs and cats made in the image of their Creator? Do dogs and cats make moral/spiritual choices?
Verse 28 from Romans 8 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.
Those who love Him do so because He loved them first.
And Ephesians 1:5 speaks to that concept as well, since God He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, based on what??? His love for us. His mercy, compassion, grace... throw whatever other nouns you want at it as long as they are Biblically appropriate. Just highlights how petty and ridiculous your complaint was in the first place.
Called according to His purpose speaks to His will, not the will of man. Scripture explicitly states it is not by man's will or desire.
Those who love Him do so because He loved them first.
And Ephesians 1:5 speaks to that concept as well, since God He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, based on what??? His love for us. His mercy, compassion, grace... throw whatever other nouns you want at it as long as they are Biblically appropriate. Just highlights how petty and ridiculous your complaint was in the first place.
Called according to His purpose speaks to His will, not the will of man. Scripture explicitly states it is not by man's will or desire.
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God created everything. That automatically means God loved everything first in order to create it. That is common knowledge that anyone should know. And it doesn't even have to be a spiritual condition to simply know if God created something it's because He loved it first and chose to create whatever He loved.
Whatever rabbit trail you are on I have no desire to follow.
The topic is whether or not the natural man has a will that is free.
Take a look at this and tell me if you can honestly answer yes to any of the questions.
And I am quite aware of the fact that every single verse that speaks against free will is not included here.
There are simply so many of them the font would be illegibly minuscule if I attempted to include them all.
What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?
The topic is whether or not the natural man has a will that is free.
Take a look at this and tell me if you can honestly answer yes to any of the questions.
And I am quite aware of the fact that every single verse that speaks against free will is not included here.
There are simply so many of them the font would be illegibly minuscule if I attempted to include them all.
What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?
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You're assuming God is merely a cosmic fortune teller, perhaps even perpetually baking fortune cookies in a cosmic oven to keep Him well supplied with knowledge of future events. 
But the real truth is that prophecies in scripture come to past solely because of God's will, his plan, his purpose. And many such eternal DECREES are his (Job 23:14)! Two concrete biblical examples will suffice to demonstrate the truth I just stated:
Ex 3:18-20; 4:21-23
18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go...4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
NIV
God knew that Pharaoh would not let the people go because that is what He decreed/purposed/appointed/ordained in eternity for the king. This Pharaoh example expresses the truth of the sovereignty of God taught in Prov 21:1.
And...
Acts 4:27-28
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 THEY did what YOUR power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
NIV
Notice that the text does not say anything about foreknowledge or that "THEY" acted according to what God saw in his crystal ball.
Give me one text in scripture that explicitly teaches that God works out all things in this world according to the will of his moral creatures.
But the real truth is that prophecies in scripture come to past solely because of God's will, his plan, his purpose. And many such eternal DECREES are his (Job 23:14)! Two concrete biblical examples will suffice to demonstrate the truth I just stated:Ex 3:18-20; 4:21-23
18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go...4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
NIV
God knew that Pharaoh would not let the people go because that is what He decreed/purposed/appointed/ordained in eternity for the king. This Pharaoh example expresses the truth of the sovereignty of God taught in Prov 21:1.
And...
Acts 4:27-28
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 THEY did what YOUR power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
NIV
Notice that the text does not say anything about foreknowledge or that "THEY" acted according to what God saw in his crystal ball.
Give me one text in scripture that explicitly teaches that God works out all things in this world according to the will of his moral creatures.
@lrs68 how many of these verses do you disagree with?
Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).
Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).
Whatever rabbit trail you are on I have no desire to follow.
The topic is whether or not the natural man man has a will that is free.
Take a look at this and tell me if you can honestly answer yes to any of the questions.
And I am quite aware of the fact that every single verse that speaks against free will is not included here.
There are simply so many of them the font would be illegibly minuscule if I attempted to include them all.
What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?
The topic is whether or not the natural man man has a will that is free.
Take a look at this and tell me if you can honestly answer yes to any of the questions.
And I am quite aware of the fact that every single verse that speaks against free will is not included here.
There are simply so many of them the font would be illegibly minuscule if I attempted to include them all.
What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?
Because none of those verses mention the mind and reasoning abilities. They specifically mention only the flesh nature.
@lrs68 how many of these verses do you disagree with?
Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).
Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).
You're assuming God is merely a cosmic fortune teller, perhaps even perpetually baking fortune cookies in a cosmic oven to keep Him well supplied with knowledge of future events. But the real truth is that prophecies in scripture come to past solely because of God's will, his plan, his purpose. And many such eternal DECREES are his (Job 23:14)! Two concrete biblical examples will suffice to demonstrate the truth I just stated:
Ex 3:18-20; 4:21-23
18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go...4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
NIV
God knew that Pharaoh would not let the people go because that is what He decreed/purposed/appointed/ordained in eternity for the king. This Pharaoh example expresses the truth of the sovereignty of God taught in Prov 21:1.
And...
Acts 4:27-28
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 THEY did what YOUR power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
NIV
Notice that the text does not say anything about foreknowledge or that "THEY" acted according to what God saw in his crystal ball.
Give me one text in scripture that explicitly teaches that God works out all things in this world according to the will of his moral creatures.
But the real truth is that prophecies in scripture come to past solely because of God's will, his plan, his purpose. And many such eternal DECREES are his (Job 23:14)! Two concrete biblical examples will suffice to demonstrate the truth I just stated:Ex 3:18-20; 4:21-23
18 "The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.' 19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him. 20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go...4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"
NIV
God knew that Pharaoh would not let the people go because that is what He decreed/purposed/appointed/ordained in eternity for the king. This Pharaoh example expresses the truth of the sovereignty of God taught in Prov 21:1.
And...
Acts 4:27-28
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 THEY did what YOUR power and will had decided beforehand should happen.
NIV
Notice that the text does not say anything about foreknowledge or that "THEY" acted according to what God saw in his crystal ball.
Give me one text in scripture that explicitly teaches that God works out all things in this world according to the will of his moral creatures.
LOL. Because the flesh nature does not include anything to do the mind and reasoning abilities? How ridiculous are you really? And what nature does the natural man have before he is made Spiritually alive in Christ? It is 100% of the the flesh nature. And despite your incredibly inane and even asinine assertion, that includes the mind and reasoning abilities.
Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
Ephesians 4 verses 17-18; Luke 6 verse 43; Jeremiah 10 verse 14 In the futility of their thinking, unbelievers are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. A diseased tree cannot bear good fruit. Every man is senseless and devoid of knowledge.
