Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[GWH]

More walls of text to obfuscate and confuse. While you believe you are reconciling, you never address the myriad of verses that speak to the helpless estate of the fallen natural man. You have him able to do things scripture says he cannot do.

Well, it's quite simple, actually. "The myriad of verses that speak to the helpless estate of the fallen natural man"
is indicated by saying "God initiates", and the walls of text that speak to the ability of fallen man to repent and be saved
is indicated by saying "sinners cooperate--or not."

 

[Kroogz]

@TheDivineWatermark has not posted since March.
Any word on him?

He always has top rate doctrine! Hope all is well.

 

[studier]

Faith is belief. The demonstration of faith is present or not in our actions. In other words, we do what we believe to be true for the most part. But this isn't the question. The question is the source of faith. If faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, then faith originates with God, not men.

Firstly, to tighten up Romans 10 just a little bit, it says faith from [a thing] heard and [a thing] heard through [a] statement/saying from God.

So, Faith/Belief [in Jesus Christ] is the result of God saying something that men hear - in this context it's the proclamation of the Gospel of the resurrected Christ proclaimed by men God sent.

So, God is the source of The Faith which is the content of the Gospel. And God is the source of men's belief/faith because He's the source of the Gospel that some men choose to believe when they hear it and some men choose to reject when they hear it.

And we both know that you'll go from here to God saving men or giving them a new heart or (?) before they can believe, because your interpretation is in essence the same as the Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity.

And last time we discussed this back at about page 551 of the Understanding God's Election thread you agreed with the Calvinistic interpretation of 1Cor2:14 and you took me to Romans 8 which you considered as more proof that unsaved men are unable to hear and understand the Gospel.

We disagree. And it's just as easy for me to say you're convoluting things as you say I am. But what's the point?

 

[cv5]

No, what YOU say is contrary to what the Bible says about "natural man", imposing your own limits that do not exist.
Standard super-determinist gatekeeper mentality, an attitude that is brutal and mean and pharisaical.

********************************************************************************************************

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the "natural man" receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

***************************************************************************************************
[Gen 32:24 KJV]
And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.

[Gen 32:25 KJV]
And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

[Gen 32:26 KJV]
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he (Jacob) said, *** I will*** not let thee go, except thou bless me.

******************************************************************************************************
Further exegetical treatment is not necessary. Unless you are a super-determinist.
Because if you are, no amount of exegesis will make Genesis 32 clear.

And just to let everyone know, the term "NATURAL MAN" is used ONE TIME in Scripture.
1 Cor 2:14.

And this is the shibboleth upon which the super-determinists erect their doctrine.

 

[Magenta]

So, Faith/Belief [in Jesus Christ] is the result of God saying something that men hear - in this context it's the proclamation of the Gospel of the resurrected Christ proclaimed by men God sent.

Blinded men under the power/influence of the devil (as is the whole unsaved world)
hear the gospel as foolishness is what you keep leaving out of your equation.

Nothing good resides in the flesh you keep leaving out also.

The natural man is hostile in his mind toward God.

And opposed to the spiritual things of God.

You have that bad tree bringing forth good fruit.

Jesus said such was not possible.

But you disagree.

I wonder how you butchered 1 Cor. 2:14.

 

[Cameron143]

Sorry, why do you infer the choices of men are whims?

Per CoPilot definition: A "whim" is a sudden, impulsive, and often irrational desire or idea. It can also refer to a capricious or eccentric turn of mind. Essentially, it's a thought or wish that comes on suddenly without a clear or strong reason.

Maybe you this is how you make choices, but it doesn't mean all of us do.

God does act sovereignly according to His ways. He justifies men from faith just as He sovereignly requires from men. His ways are just not what you think they are.

It's simply a phrase to describe how your understanding subjegates God to the desires of men. This is inaccurate. It stems from a misunderstanding of the estate of the fallen natural man.
As I'm not going to alter your view, I do thank you for the cordial discussion. Though I disagree with your understanding on the subject, you are able to articulate your position and I have come to better understand your position. Grace and peace.

 

[Magenta]

Scripture attests that everyone born of God overcomes the world.

FW proponents say man overcomes the world and then they are born of God.

 

[Cameron143]

Well, it's quite simple, actually. "The myriad of verses that speak to the helpless estate of the fallen natural man"
is indicated by saying "God initiates", and the walls of text that speak to the ability of fallen man to repent and be saved
is indicated by saying "sinners cooperate--or not."

Which is fine, but the question remains: what is the cause of the cooperation? If man must cooperate, yet begins unable to, what allows him to now do so? What changed that makes a helpless individual able to cooperate?

 

[Magenta]

Which is fine, but the question remains: what is the cause of the cooperation? If man must cooperate, yet begins
unable to, what allows him to now do so? What changed that makes a helpless individual able to cooperate?

That incurably wicked heart of the man within whom nothing good exists, well, you know according to the
FW proponents all that is overstated in the Bible and he is not such a bad guy after all. He can understand
what Scripture says is foolishness to him and bring forth good fruit even though Jesus said it was not possible.
Of his own volition he overcomes the world and then God rewards him by causing him to be born again.

 

[Cameron143]

Firstly, to tighten up Romans 10 just a little bit, it says faith from [a thing] heard and [a thing] heard through [a] statement/saying from God.

So, Faith/Belief [in Jesus Christ] is the result of God saying something that men hear - in this context it's the proclamation of the Gospel of the resurrected Christ proclaimed by men God sent.

So, God is the source of The Faith which is the content of the Gospel. And God is the source of men's belief/faith because He's the source of the Gospel that some men choose to believe when they hear it and some men choose to reject when they hear it.

And we both know that you'll go from here to God saving men or giving them a new heart or (?) before they can believe, because your interpretation is in essence the same as the Calvinistic doctrine of Total Depravity.

And last time we discussed this back at about page 551 of the Understanding God's Election thread you agreed with the Calvinistic interpretation of 1Cor2:14 and you took me to Romans 8 which you considered as more proof that unsaved men are unable to hear and understand the Gospel.

We disagree. And it's just as easy for me to say you're convoluting things as you say I am. But what's the point?

I do believe all of man was affected by the fall. That is, every aspect and faculty of man was affected. This doesn't mean that man is necessarily as bad as he can possibly be, but that in order to be redeemed he must have every aspect of his being restored. This would include his heart, his mind, and, consequently, his will. And this is exactly what God deals with in Acts 2:37 before man responds.

 

[studier]

It's simply a phrase to describe how your understanding subjegates God to the desires of men. This is inaccurate. It stems from a misunderstanding of the estate of the fallen natural man.

Only God can "subjugate" God in any remote sense of the word. And God does in a sense subordinate His will to save all men to the decision of men to accept Him or to reject Him.

On the one hand He wills that all men be saved and that none perish - yet He knows that some men will willingly reject Him and will perish - and that He will permit this.

On the other hand, His will is to have a willingly obedient righteous holy faithful loving (aka godly) family of siblings for His uniquely born first-born Son who perfectly bears those character traits - and He knows He will have this family in His Son.

What we have is a disagreement about the extent of the estate of fallen natural man which is the same disagreement I have with Calvinists.

 

[Kroogz]

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 16:8-9
And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;

2 Cor 6:2
For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[Magenta]

I do believe all of man was affected by the fall. That is, every aspect and faculty of man was affected. This doesn't mean that man is necessarily as bad as he can possibly be, but that in order to be redeemed he must have every aspect of his being restored. This would include his heart, his mind, and, consequently, his will. And this is exactly what God deals with in Acts 2:37 before man responds.

There are a lot of Pelagian heretics here!

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[Magenta]

I do believe all of man was affected by the fall. That is, every aspect and faculty of man was affected. This doesn't mean that man is necessarily as bad as he can possibly be, but that in order to be redeemed he must have every aspect of his being restored. This would include his heart, his mind, and, consequently, his will. And this is exactly what God deals with in Acts 2:37 before man responds.

Deuteronomy 30 verse 6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[Magenta]

Of course these free will proponents who claim that God acting unilaterally makes Him an unjust
tyrannical monster kidnapping people against their will just show that they would rather blaspheme
God than accept what Scripture plainly states. One of them even insisted that God must have raped
Mary if He did not ask her permission, which according to Scripture He certainly did not ask Mary's
permission, but this too just goes to show the despicable lengths people will go to in order to avoid
admitting they are wrong when they make some claim that is not backed up by Scripture.

 

[lrs68]

Free Will isn't about the ability to seek after God.
It isn't about choosing right from wrong.
It ain't even about the majority of what's being discussed for the past 100 pages.
Free Will is all about when God comes to a person, awakens them, manifests Himself to a person that person can accept or reject God.

Romans talks about God manifesting Himself, 1 Corinthians talks about God making Himself known to the consciousness, Hebrews talks about people who have been Saved and experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit and in all examples they REJECTED GOD.

Until you know what Free Will is about and when it takes place it's just 100 pages of assumptions.
All decisions before God are from a state of sin.
All decisions after being saved are from a state of Sanctification.

But in the process of God making Himself known and Regeneration until complete Salvation man has the ability to accept or reject God. That is what Free Will is about.

 

[Magenta]

Free Will isn't about the ability to seek after God.
It isn't about choosing right from wrong.
It ain't even about the majority of what's being discussed for the past 100 pages.
Free Will is all about when God comes to a person, awakens them, manifests Himself to a person that person can accept or reject God.

Romans talks about God manifesting Himself, 1 Corinthians talks about God making Himself known to the consciousness, Hebrews talks about people who have been Saved and experienced the filling of the Holy Spirit and in all examples they REJECTED GOD.

Until you know what Free Will is about and when it takes place it's just 100 pages of assumptions.
All decisions before God are from a state of sin.
All decisions after being saved are from a state of Sanctification.

But in the process of God making Himself known and Regeneration until complete Salvation man has the ability to accept or reject God. That is what Free Will is about.

It is Jesus Who sets us free. When in your scenario does man's thinking and reasoning abilities become involved?

Despite what the un-Biblical free will doctrine promoters put forth, the natural man does not have everything he needs in order to grow the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his incurably wicked heart which is opposed to the things of God, and he cannot change himself, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and blinded to the truth while under the power of the evil one. Those who promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths.

 

[lrs68]

It is Jesus Who sets us free. When in your scenario does man's thinking and reasoning abilities become involved?

Despite what the un-Biblical free will doctrine promoters put forth, the natural man does not have everything he needs in order to grow the good fruit of faith from the stony ground of his incurably wicked heart which is opposed to the things of God, and he cannot change himself, being a lover of darkness who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness as a slave to sin, being inherently hostile in his mind toward God, and blinded to the truth while under the power of the evil one. Those who promote the free will of the natural man reject a plethora of Biblical truths.

No one is disputing what God has done because He does it all. But if I don't want His Gift I won't accept it.

 

[studier]

I do believe all of man was affected by the fall. That is, every aspect and faculty of man was affected. This doesn't mean that man is necessarily as bad as he can possibly be, but that in order to be redeemed he must have every aspect of his being restored. This would include his heart, his mind, and, consequently, his will. And this is exactly what God deals with in Acts 2:37 before man responds.

I too interpret that all of man was affected by the fall. However, I disagree that man created in God's likeness was left without the ability to know of God's existence, to believe in God albeit imperfectly, to be convinced/convicted by the Spirit of God working in the world, to be persuaded by the powerful Word of God, and to choose to believe what God says.

I refer you back to the discussion we had about Acts2 in the other thread, again at about P.551 or so. As discussed there, I don't see men being persuaded by Peter explaining to Jewish men with Scripture that they had killed their long awaited Messiah and explaining this within the context of the miraculous things God was doing around them, and this resulting in their being "stabbed in the heart" in realizing what they'd done, as any indication that God gave them a new heart so they could believe.

Being stabbed in the heart by realizing we've done something grievous, especially with God they'd grown up with culturally, is simply not hard for me to comprehend.

 

[Magenta]

I disagree that man created in God's likeness was left without the ability to know of God's existence

More misrepresentation.