Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Flesh serves the law of sin, for the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are opposed to each other. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! Because everyone born of God overcomes the world. In the mixed up unBiblical theology, of the free will crowd , man overcomes the world with his wicked heart and is then born again.

 

[Magenta]

In 1 Cor 2 verse 14, the natural man, still unsaved, cannot comprehend the spiritual things of God. He does not understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice, for that is foolishness to him (1 Cor 1 verse 18). The Holy Spirit Himself must convict him of its reality, and of his standing before God (John 16 verses 7-11).So this natural man is unregenerated, one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3 verse 6).
@BillyBob Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[Magenta]

There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26

 

[GWH]

Those with CDS have a hard time seeing past their nose, and asking an open mind of them is really probably
expecting too much! Some think it hilarious when it is pointed out someone does not believe what Scripture says
when you can place it right in front of their face, and they will contradict and deny what it plainly says in favour of
their opinion, vain philosophy, and/or tradition of man which to be sure has zero verses in the Bible to support it.
They are so deceived that they think man's inability is taught exclusively in Calvinism. They don't care for truth.
They will say everyone hears when Jesus said otherwise, then they claim that only applies to Jews like they are
not flesh and blood just like us, when the whole world is blinded to the truth, hearing the gospel as foolishness.
It is HID from them, this is explicitly stated, not comprehended at all yet they say man will choose to believe
that which is nonsense to him from that state of being hostile in his mind to God. It really is amazing to see
so much twisting in the wind when these verses are pointed out to them and then they say, oh, what about
the verses we give? When absolutely none of them express the idea of the unregenerate man choosing to believe.

Every accusation you make has three fingers pointing back.
When I first joined CC, your pictures gave the impression that you were congenial,
but I learned otherwise. However, if you will stop the ad hominems and want to discuss Scripture,
please share one at a time as I requested BB to do.

 

[cv5]

Crying out to the Lord and getting an answer can't ever happen in the super-determinist economy. Lost sheep NEVER get saved nor do prodigal sons.

You either were pre-born selected or you are eternally doomed with zero remedy.

Of course this is an abhorrent misrepresentation of the always good willing to forgive God Who tender loving heart is seen here:

[Luk 15:18-20 KJV]

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

***************************
Aaaaand of course his repentance was the product of his own FREE WILL....
NOT some preposterous bizarre pre-birth programming scam.

[Mat 21:28-30 KJV]

28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

[Luk 15:18-20 KJV]

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

[Luk 15:18-20 KJV]

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

the elder son ...

Luke 15:25-28 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go. in ...

Jesus spoke these words to the pharisees and scribes who murmured because Jesus received and ate with publicans and sinners

The elder son's attitude was like the attitude of the pharisees and scribes ... how dare You have anything to do with those awful sinners ...
.
.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

the elder son ...

Luke 15:25-28 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go. in ...

Jesus spoke these words to the pharisees and scribes who murmured because Jesus received and ate with publicans and sinners

The elder son's attitude was like the attitude of the pharisees and scribes ... how dare You have anything to do with those awful sinners ...
.
.

Yeah notice who it was that came near to hear Jesus and who stayed back and whispered rumors and accusations

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.

And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there are a lot of Christian’s like that today they won’t acknowledge thier own sins and apply his doctrine but they also don’t want any other “ sinners “ coming near to Jesus because he’s thier holy Lord …..many reject a Jesus that became friend and savior of the sinners but that’s just what he did

those we judge and look down upon , those dressed in rags we tend to make judgements about those we walk by the on the other side because we see thoer need and don’t want to engage with them …..those types of people are always the most receptive to the gospel while many religious folks who sepnt their lives in church somehow develope a callousness towards sinners and seem to forget to examine thoer own selves before they examine others

sinners is who Jesus came for not the righteous folk who just think they are righteous but the sinners who acknowledge thier sins and want remission

 

[cv5]

the elder son ...

Luke 15:25-28 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go. in ...

Jesus spoke these words to the pharisees and scribes who murmured because Jesus received and ate with publicans and sinners

The elder son's attitude was like the attitude of the pharisees and scribes ... how dare You have anything to do with those awful sinners ...
.
.

He must have been a super-determinist.
Its obvious by his denial of the FREE WILL capacity of the younger son to repent of his own FREE WILL.

 

[Rufus]

Yes, although discerning implied meaning is neither circular reasoning nor eisegesis,
but if you think it is, then complain to the writers--don't shoot the messenger!

The implied meaning of spiritual ability is false! Stay tuned to solid biblical proof of this fact.

 

[Rufus]

This might help some of you understand who the natural man is (from gotquestions.org). One can always hope!

What does Paul mean when he writes of the natural man?

In 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, the natural man is compared to the spiritual man and the carnal man. Verse 14 says, “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (NASB). This verse does not define the natural man, as such; rather, it uses the term to describe one who does not understand God’s words and thoughts. The one who can understand God’s words is a “spiritual” man (verse 15).

Dr. Henry Morris, in the New Defender’s Study Bible, gives this comment on verse 14: “The ‘natural’ man, still unsaved, cannot appreciate spiritual truths. He must first understand Christ’s atoning sacrifice for him, but even that is ‘foolishness’ to him (1:18) until the Holy Spirit Himself convicts him of its reality (John 16:7-11).” Basically, the “natural” man is one who does not have the Holy Spirit residing within him. As Jesus said, “Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit” (John 3:6).

In 1 Corinthians 2, Paul uses the word natural to refer to someone still in his original (sinful) state. The Greek word psuchikos (“natural”) can be defined as “animal,” as opposed to “spiritual.” Natural men are those who are occupied with the things of this material world to the exclusion of the things of God. They are led by instinct rather than by the Spirit of God. They intuitively choose sin over righteousness. They are the “pagans” Jesus refers to in Matthew 6:32 who only seek after the things of this world.

The supernatural work of God is to change the natural man into a spiritual one.

Which is also called God's new creation.

 

[Magenta]

Which is also called God's new creation.

Yes... the new man, the old man... just incredible that so few know who
these people are, and the names/titles/what have you attributed to them.

 

[GWH]

The implied meaning of spiritual ability is false! Stay tuned to solid biblical proof of this fact.

Well, I guess I might as well include you in the same proposal I made to BB and then Mag:
If you will stop the ad hominems and want to discuss Scripture congenially,
please share one at a time and we will see if we can have a constructive discussion
that does not degenerate into playing ping-pong.

 

[Magenta]

Well, I guess I might as well include you in the same proposal I made to BB and then Mag:
If you will stop the ad hominems and want to discuss Scripture congenially,
please share one at a time and we will see if we can have a constructive discussion
that does not degenerate into playing ping-pong.

Laughable. In the middle of you wanting me to seek peace with you after YOUR offensive behaviour and ridiculous false
accusations, you again falsely accused me of the very same thing! You are 100% untrustworthy as far as I am concerned.
You proved it again yesterday insisting this thread is not about whether man's will is free.

 

[GWH]

Laughable. In the middle of you wanting me to seek peace with you after YOUR offensive behaviour and ridiculous false
accusations, you again falsely accused me of the very same thing! You are 100% untrustworthy as far as I am concerned.
You proved it again yesterday insisting this thread is not about whether man's will is free.

Well, one down, two to go.

 

[BillyBob]

Okay, you seem more congenial than some tulipists I have met on CC, so I am willing to discuss this issue if you are,
so please present your Scriptures one at a time. I have already shared many of those that indicate MFW, but perhaps
you were not on CC and did not see them. If you would peruse our website, I don't think you would worry about me
not having an open mind. Probably some would think it is too open!
TTYL

Since Magenta has already posted many times what scripture proclaims concerning Man's salvation, I will refer you back to her post #1960 on page 98.
I do this because she is much more adapt at organizing and presenting facts than I. And, her references are always spot on!
This panel outlines both man's inability to please God, and the miracle perform by God to save us in spite of our depravity.

After reading through it, if you still believe that man turns to God in his own strength, please do not come back with scripture which says something like “turn to me and be saved”. Such scriptures simply speak of a requirement, but in no way speaks of man's ability perform the act without God first changing his depraved heart.
I will always admit that I may be wrong and that those who trust in MFW could be correct, (but I just cannot see it). Either way, I do not think it is a salvation issue!

 

[Magenta]

How many of these Biblical truths do you disagree with? Thank you once again, Mister Billy Bob!

Man is deceitful (Jeremiah 17 verse 9), full of evil (Mark 7 verses 21-23), loves darkness rather than light (John 3 verse 19), cannot come to God on his own (John 6 verse 44), does not seek for God (Romans 3 verses 10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Romans 5 verse 6), nothing good dwells in his flesh(Romans 7 verse 18), is a slave of sin (Romans 6 verse 20; John 8 verse 34; 2 Timothy 2 verse 26), cannot receive spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2 verse 14), is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2 verse 1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2 verse 3), is at enmity with God (Ephesians 2 verse 15), hostile to God and cannot submit to God's law (Romans 8 verse 7). Therefore we rightfully conclude in accordance with the conditions described of the natural man in Scripture that his inherent inclination is to reject God. Thanks be to God, Who appoints people to believe (Acts 13 verse 48), chooses who is to be holy and blameless (Ephesians 1 verse 4), predestines us to adoption (Ephesians 1 verse 5), calls according to His purpose (2 Timothy 1 verse 9), chooses us for salvation (2 Thessalonians 2 verse 13), leads us to and grants us repentance (Romans 2 verse 4; 2 Timothy 2 verses 24-25), grants the act of believing (Philippians 1 verse 29), works faith in the believer (John 6 verses 28-29), causes us to be born again (1 Peter 1 verse 3), born again not by our will but by His will (John 1 verses 12-13), draws people to Himself (John 6 verse 44), grants that we come to Jesus (John 6 verse 65), predestines us to salvation (Romans 8 verses 29- 30), and circumcises our heart (Romans 2 verse 29), all according to His purpose (Ephesians 1 verse 11).

 

[Magenta]

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?

 

[Rufus]

Yes... the new man, the old man... just incredible that so few know who
these people are, and the names/titles/what have you attributed to them.

FWT is fraught with many problems. One of the biggies is that FWers refuse to see God's salvation as a miracle -- as God's supernatural work within a man's heart, soul and mind. Salvation to their mind is merely a natural act of man's efficacious "freewill". They cannot acknowledge God's work as being supernatural in nature because then God would be "forcing" his horrible, untrustworthy will upon upon his moral creatures.

 

[Magenta]

FWT is fraught with many problems. One of the biggies is that FWers refuse to see God's salvation as a miracle -- as God's supernatural work within a man's heart, soul and mind. Salvation to their mind is merely a natural act of man's efficacious "freewill". They cannot acknowledge God's work as being supernatural in nature because then God would be "forcing" his horrible, untrustworthy will upon upon his moral creatures.

Scripture explicitly articulates that it is not by the will, desire, or effort of man but by the will and desire of God but even that is not good enough for them. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic that they conflate being able to decide what color of socks to wear or what to have for lunch with man's ability to choose God when Scripture explicitly states also that none seek for Him. And all the "he's not such a bad guy after all" stuff that we hear... It gets to a point where it seems a never-ending list of their disagreements with God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Since Magenta has already posted many times what scripture proclaims concerning Man's salvation, I will refer you back to her post #1960 on page 98.
I do this because she is much more adapt at organizing and presenting facts than I. And, her references are always spot on!
This panel outlines both man's inability to please God, and the miracle perform by God to save us in spite of our depravity.

After reading through it, if you still believe that man turns to God in his own strength, please do not come back with scripture which says something like “turn to me and be saved”. Such scriptures simply speak of a requirement, but in no way speaks of man's ability perform the act without God first changing his depraved heart.
I will always admit that I may be wrong and that those who trust in MFW could be correct, (but I just cannot see it). Either way, I do not think it is a salvation issue!

It does not take strength to believe.