Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."
I think you have added to what Jesus said in John 8:34.
From Romans 6 verses 16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I think you have added to what Jesus said in John 8:34.
From Romans 6 verses 16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
which "OR" obviously indicates MFW.
Oops!
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But that means you have to save a person before they can be saved. Grace is what liberates a person which is why even the unregenerate can make a response to God from their own free will because God meets us with grace and truth. He decides what to do with believers, that is predestination, not this warped idea of God deciding who will believe or who will not.
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Understand that purpose of the dialectical method of hermeneutics is to learn the truth.
Scriptures cited by tulipists so far:
First, Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."
In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching. The immediate context includes:
Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."
Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."
Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
Second, 1Cor. 1:18-21, "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."
The immediate context includes:
1Cor. 1:23-24, "We preach Christ crucified... to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Commentary: Again, "We preach to all natural men", and "to those natural men God has called". From this we learn that
God's method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe. This prompts the question: Is "desire" in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God's "calling" in 1Cor. 1:24--and we might add with God's "drawing" in John 12:32 and with God's "invitation" in Matt. 22:14?
The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God's calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.
Continuing with the context:
1Cor. 1:26, "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called... Not many were influential." They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God's calling.
1Cor. 1:27-28, "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise... the lowly... and the despised". God's saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that "no one may boast before him" (1Cor. 1:29).
1Cor. 2:1-2, "When I came to you, brothers... I proclaimed to you... Jesus Christ and him crucified." Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul's preaching of the Gospel.
1Cor. 2:10, "God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." God's HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).
Third, Deut. 29:4, "To this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear."
Commentary: Tulipist - God sovereignly withheld grace from them! Moses blamed Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience on God
(cf. Rom. 1:18-23).
Immediate context:
Deut. 28:1 & 15, "If you fully obey the Lord your God... God will set you high above all the nations on earth...
However, if you do not obey the Lord your God... all these curses will come upon you." Commentary - This verse implies
that the Israelites are free to obey or disobey.
Deut. 29:9, "Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do." Commentary - This seems
to indicate that the Israelites can follow or not follow the terms.
Deut. 30:19b-20a, "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life,
so that you and your children might live and that you may love the Lord your God." Commentary - This is the clearest
statement of what Moses meant, and it obviously teaches that the Israelites are deemed to have MFW.
Scriptures cited by tulipists so far:
First, Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."
In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching. The immediate context includes:
Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."
Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."
Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
Second, 1Cor. 1:18-21, "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."
The immediate context includes:
1Cor. 1:23-24, "We preach Christ crucified... to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Commentary: Again, "We preach to all natural men", and "to those natural men God has called". From this we learn that
God's method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe. This prompts the question: Is "desire" in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God's "calling" in 1Cor. 1:24--and we might add with God's "drawing" in John 12:32 and with God's "invitation" in Matt. 22:14?
The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God's calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.
Continuing with the context:
1Cor. 1:26, "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called... Not many were influential." They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God's calling.
1Cor. 1:27-28, "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise... the lowly... and the despised". God's saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that "no one may boast before him" (1Cor. 1:29).
1Cor. 2:1-2, "When I came to you, brothers... I proclaimed to you... Jesus Christ and him crucified." Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul's preaching of the Gospel.
1Cor. 2:10, "God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." God's HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).
Third, Deut. 29:4, "To this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear."
Commentary: Tulipist - God sovereignly withheld grace from them! Moses blamed Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience on God
(cf. Rom. 1:18-23).
Immediate context:
Deut. 28:1 & 15, "If you fully obey the Lord your God... God will set you high above all the nations on earth...
However, if you do not obey the Lord your God... all these curses will come upon you." Commentary - This verse implies
that the Israelites are free to obey or disobey.
Deut. 29:9, "Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do." Commentary - This seems
to indicate that the Israelites can follow or not follow the terms.
Deut. 30:19b-20a, "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life,
so that you and your children might live and that you may love the Lord your God." Commentary - This is the clearest
statement of what Moses meant, and it obviously teaches that the Israelites are deemed to have MFW.
A person must be saved from the slavery of sin, to do righteousness, to become a servant of righteousness Rom 6:18,20
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
And both being made free from sin and becoming servants of righteousness are in the passive voice in the original, the person was acted upon, they received the action, they didn't act themselves to be made free or to become a servant of righteousness.
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
And both being made free from sin and becoming servants of righteousness are in the passive voice in the original, the person was acted upon, they received the action, they didn't act themselves to be made free or to become a servant of righteousness.
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Context determines how words are used. I explained the context to you, but it's above my pay grade to make you understand it. God revealed Himself to the Hebrews through his external signs and wonders; but He did not reveal Himself internally to their hearts, which accounts for their hostile, rebellious attitude toward Him. Therein is the contrast in the context of the passage.
So, God is the primary cause of man's rebellion.
Good of you to finally make this clear after 2-3 attempts asking you to do so.
Makes sense with your theology.
God causes man to rebel then God laments that man rebels.
God in eternity chose some men to save & God in eternity chose other men to make them rebellious and condemn. Then God laments at the latter.
I think it's above your paygrade to make sense of Scripture which would include its context. Specific wording is way too much to ask of you.
Good of you to finally make this clear after 2-3 attempts asking you to do so.
Makes sense with your theology.
God causes man to rebel then God laments that man rebels.
God in eternity chose some men to save & God in eternity chose other men to make them rebellious and condemn. Then God laments at the latter.
I think it's above your paygrade to make sense of Scripture which would include its context. Specific wording is way too much to ask of you.
If God desires all men to be saved, then why didn't he perform a miracle by opening the eyes and unstopping the ears of the ancient Hebrews in the wilderness (Deut 29:4-9) so that He would be able to impart spiritual understanding to them?
And if v. 9 is teaching spiritual ability, as you claim, then why did Moses write what he did in v.4? If the Hebrews had that kind of ability, why would God need to give them eyes to see and ears to hear, since their self-induced obedience would prove they already opened their own eyes and unstopped their own ears to understand spiritual truth?
And if v. 9 is teaching spiritual ability, as you claim, then why did Moses write what he did in v.4? If the Hebrews had that kind of ability, why would God need to give them eyes to see and ears to hear, since their self-induced obedience would prove they already opened their own eyes and unstopped their own ears to understand spiritual truth?
What was utterly dumb was Kroog's attempt to romanticize slavery and downplay its seriousness. Also, your assumption that if a man chooses to "ask God" proves he has "freewill" involves circular reasoning; for it fails to take into account that God could have efficaciously enabled him to ASK! After all, Jesus did say once upon a time, "Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING"!
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I re-posted this scripture to defend my use of the word if . The reference, at least to me, is that God through the prophet Jeremiah, did present His people with a choice. It was not a trick. They did not heed the warning or could not due to their evil hardened hearts. There are other similar commands and choices which were spoken of in the OT. In Genesis the people were told Get The Out And Don't Look Back. Those who obeyed God were kept safe. However, God used a salt shaker on the one who did not heed the warning.
It seems to be a heart thing. Just as Jer 18:12 tells us, their heart was stubborn and they would not listen.
Even today, we have a stubborn heart. God tells us that we must hear His word, we must trust in him, we must repent, we must believe, …..
Each and every one of these commands must be met by us to be placed into Christ. But man's heart is stubborn and he will not listen. But the good news is that some, by grace, will be given a new heart and enabled to do so.
Like I said, “It seems to be a heart thing”. I pray that God will give a new heart to all that I come into contact with.
It seems to be a heart thing. Just as Jer 18:12 tells us, their heart was stubborn and they would not listen.
Even today, we have a stubborn heart. God tells us that we must hear His word, we must trust in him, we must repent, we must believe, …..
Each and every one of these commands must be met by us to be placed into Christ. But man's heart is stubborn and he will not listen. But the good news is that some, by grace, will be given a new heart and enabled to do so.
Like I said, “It seems to be a heart thing”. I pray that God will give a new heart to all that I come into contact with.
Re "If God desires all men to be saved, then why didn't he perform a miracle by opening the eyes and unstopping the ears of the ancient Hebrews in the wilderness (Deut 29:4-9) so that He would be able to impart spiritual understanding to them?": Because God desired to have a relationship with souls created in His image (having MFW), not with robots.
Re "And if v. 9 is teaching spiritual ability, as you claim, then why did Moses write what he did in v.4?": In order to show that it is not proper to proof-text.
Re "If the Hebrews had that kind of ability, why would God need to give them eyes to see and ears to hear, since their self-induced obedience would prove they already opened their own eyes and unstopped their own ears to understand spiritual truth?":
Your question illustrates the difficulty of always stating something clearly in one brief sentence, and perhaps my answer will do the same, but here it is: God DID give them the ability (Deut. 30:19), but He ALSO gave them the ability NOT to see and hear (the disability, Deut. 29:4), which twofold (both/and) enabling is what may be termed MFW.
Re "And if v. 9 is teaching spiritual ability, as you claim, then why did Moses write what he did in v.4?": In order to show that it is not proper to proof-text.
Re "If the Hebrews had that kind of ability, why would God need to give them eyes to see and ears to hear, since their self-induced obedience would prove they already opened their own eyes and unstopped their own ears to understand spiritual truth?":
Your question illustrates the difficulty of always stating something clearly in one brief sentence, and perhaps my answer will do the same, but here it is: God DID give them the ability (Deut. 30:19), but He ALSO gave them the ability NOT to see and hear (the disability, Deut. 29:4), which twofold (both/and) enabling is what may be termed MFW.
He decides what to do with believers, that is predestination
Correct.
Predestination has to do with the FUTURE (as regards the born into time sons of Adam).
God Who is outside of time made the necessary arrangements for the future of those who love Him.
Predestination: PREPARED DESTINATION yet future.
Correct.
Predestination has to do with the FUTURE (as regards the born into time sons of Adam).
God Who is outside of time made the necessary arrangements for the future of those who love Him.
Predestination: PREPARED DESTINATION yet future.
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God doesn't "cause" man to sin. Man himself sins! God doesn't twist arms to force anyone to sin. Rather, in the negative sense God removes or withholds restraining grace to give man a longer leash with which to hang himself! God doesn't "hang" anyone; he just allows men to do what comes naturally with their own self-destructive behavior. i.e. hang themselves . And God is perfectly just in removing or withholding HIS grace to undeserving moral creatures since He is not morally obligated to bestow grace upon anyone.
Moreover, scripture itself attests to the fact man's ways are NOT in himself. (You remember, right: All the scriptures that you vehemently hate that teach this truth!?) But this doesn't mean that God "causes" men to sin. What causes men to sin is their unchained, unrestrained sin nature which God can sovereignly give them over to. The removal or withholding of grace empowers the sin nature in much the same way the Law inflames the sin nature! We saw this very clearly with Pharaoh when God hardened his heart (Ex 3-4), and again in Acts 4:27-28 with the crucifixion of His Son which was all ordained in eternity.
Moreover, scripture itself attests to the fact man's ways are NOT in himself. (You remember, right: All the scriptures that you vehemently hate that teach this truth!?) But this doesn't mean that God "causes" men to sin. What causes men to sin is their unchained, unrestrained sin nature which God can sovereignly give them over to. The removal or withholding of grace empowers the sin nature in much the same way the Law inflames the sin nature! We saw this very clearly with Pharaoh when God hardened his heart (Ex 3-4), and again in Acts 4:27-28 with the crucifixion of His Son which was all ordained in eternity.
I hope @GWH stills answers you even though I'm jumping in. I'm enjoying his work.
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land--3 "the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. (Deut. 29:2-3 NKJ)
God did perform miracles in the way God desired to perform miracles.
To some of us God is doing things a certain way to address man's will and to educate him to what God wills because at minimum God desires men to willfully love/obey Him. And we know from Scripture that some did that even though not to the perfect degree God desires as He revealed in His perfect Son.
But, since you see God as the primary cause of man's rebellion, why don't you just rest there and stop all the rhetoric? Your election + compatibilism concept is well understood by some of us.
What's interesting here to me is that I could join you in the primary cause analogy if it weren't for the way you see it.
Your primary cause ties to your focus on God's hatred for men and your erroneous view of election that ties to it. Your view is really very simplistic.
When some of us look at primary cause it would be that in giving men signs and wonders God graciously gave them things to accept or reject - He addressed beyond their senses into their will and their hearts - the same as He did in the Garden.
This is similar to how Paul dealt with his later understanding of Law in Rom7 - how Law was revealing a problem inside of himself that God through Law was revealing to men about themselves
The fact is that there is a tension created in Scriptures like these. God revealed Himself in grace > some rejected Him > God withholds some grace > God tells them to repent and keep covenant. God is addressing their will.
The only weak link here is men who choose to reject. Your answer is God chose them to reject. Mine is they chose to reject, and I see God doing many things through history to get men to look deeper into both Him and themselves.
Your simplicity looks right past such things.
The tension is revealed both in very simple context and additionally in wording I've attempted to highlight that actually causes some of us to look even deeper into the context and see a bit more than a simple contrast that the people see but don't see.
2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land--3 "the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. (Deut. 29:2-3 NKJ)
God did perform miracles in the way God desired to perform miracles.
To some of us God is doing things a certain way to address man's will and to educate him to what God wills because at minimum God desires men to willfully love/obey Him. And we know from Scripture that some did that even though not to the perfect degree God desires as He revealed in His perfect Son.
But, since you see God as the primary cause of man's rebellion, why don't you just rest there and stop all the rhetoric? Your election + compatibilism concept is well understood by some of us.
What's interesting here to me is that I could join you in the primary cause analogy if it weren't for the way you see it.
Your primary cause ties to your focus on God's hatred for men and your erroneous view of election that ties to it. Your view is really very simplistic.
When some of us look at primary cause it would be that in giving men signs and wonders God graciously gave them things to accept or reject - He addressed beyond their senses into their will and their hearts - the same as He did in the Garden.
This is similar to how Paul dealt with his later understanding of Law in Rom7 - how Law was revealing a problem inside of himself that God through Law was revealing to men about themselves
The fact is that there is a tension created in Scriptures like these. God revealed Himself in grace > some rejected Him > God withholds some grace > God tells them to repent and keep covenant. God is addressing their will.
The only weak link here is men who choose to reject. Your answer is God chose them to reject. Mine is they chose to reject, and I see God doing many things through history to get men to look deeper into both Him and themselves.
Your simplicity looks right past such things.
The tension is revealed both in very simple context and additionally in wording I've attempted to highlight that actually causes some of us to look even deeper into the context and see a bit more than a simple contrast that the people see but don't see.
Your reply "illustrates the [great] difficulty you have in exegeting and interpreting scripture in its context. Deut 30 contains the same kind of tension between the sovereignty of God and the the moral responsibility of man. You conveniently overlook the future promise of heart circumcision to the chosen people that would efficaciously enable them to love God and keep his commandments (v. 6). Yet, at the same time, this did not prevent Moses from reminding the people of their duty to love God and keep his commandments presently -- before the day of His circumcision arrives (v. 16). Therefore, this is yet another passage that clearly teaches what the commands of God really denote: And it's not man's moral/spiritual ability, but rather his sacred duty towards his Creator.
So...the "good news" of your perverted, twisted version of the gospel is that God's potential savior at once enbables all mankind that He supposedly is eager to save from perishing to believe and not believe! God speaks out of both sides of his mouth! Or is it you who does this!? YOU...who don't believe in the efficacy of God's grace still confess that His grace is efficacious since you say that God [EFFECTIVELY] gives people the ability to obey and not obey. Yet, at the same time, you have often denied the very efficacy of his grace which you now unwittingly propound -- totally oblivious to your own contradictions.
So...the "good news" of your perverted, twisted version of the gospel is that God's potential savior at once enbables all mankind that He supposedly is eager to save from perishing to believe and not believe! God speaks out of both sides of his mouth! Or is it you who does this!? YOU...who don't believe in the efficacy of God's grace still confess that His grace is efficacious since you say that God [EFFECTIVELY] gives people the ability to obey and not obey. Yet, at the same time, you have often denied the very efficacy of his grace which you now unwittingly propound -- totally oblivious to your own contradictions.
