Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Go ahead.....tell your children that they are utterly hopelessly depraved evil sinners and God despises them.
And tell them that they are most certainly condemned to eternal hell and there is zero that they can do about it.
I double dog dare you.
Here, lets up the ante. Do so to every little kid (while their parent watch) in your Church and see what happens.
Sure its easy to expound your super-determinist theories here on a message board.
But realistically, you would be run out of town on a rail anywhere else.
And tell them that they are most certainly condemned to eternal hell and there is zero that they can do about it.
I double dog dare you.
Here, lets up the ante. Do so to every little kid (while their parent watch) in your Church and see what happens.
Sure its easy to expound your super-determinist theories here on a message board.
But realistically, you would be run out of town on a rail anywhere else.
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The Father sees us before we see Him and comes to us with grace and truth.
The decision to be likewise "willing" lies with us.
Put another way, the Bride MUST say "I do" to the Groom of her OWN FREE WILL.
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Okay, the first Scripture is Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."
In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching.
The immediate context includes:
Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."
Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."
Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
Is this sufficient, or do we need to cite relevant NT Scripture also?
God is using Jeremiah to warn them of punishment if they continue down the path that they are on. However, in Jer 18:8 He does promise to relent if they turn from their evil.
But we all know that they did not turn from their evil and did in fact get punished.
Why?
Because – Jer 17:9 tells us that their heart was deceitful above all things and only God can change the heart.
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Billy Bob, are you sure??? Doesn't Scripture say a leopard can change its spots and an Ethiopian the colour of his skin???????
Just as surely as a man can change his incurably wicked heart????? Yes I am sure that is what FWers teach.
A bad tree can grow good fruit according to them. Something good exists in their flesh. It does not oppose God.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
Just as surely as a man can change his incurably wicked heart????? Yes I am sure that is what FWers teach.
A bad tree can grow good fruit according to them. Something good exists in their flesh. It does not oppose God.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. Romans 3 verses 11-12; Romans 8 verses 5-8; 2 Timothy 2 verses 25-26
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Yeah he’s “the savior of a select few “ but only the chosen few sinners who also sinned and deserve death but …. only they receive mercy and salvation and irresistible grace that forces them to be saved without ever needing to obey the lord …..or do anything Jesus said we need to do
the other poor sinners are just never loved by God or even allowed to “ hear “ salvation and have any choice in the matter but yet he tells us this is how well all be judged in the end
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11 NIV
but these people “those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: “
they only did that because god didn’t make them capable to do anything else but that they were born to do the evil he is now punishing them for and rewarding them for not what they did but what he created them to do just to do evil and be punished they never had any chance to be saved thier just forewood these poor living souls he created just for destruction by his chcoice ….not thier choices and actions nooooo not like this
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
But instead this judt and righteous God who is love ……..he chose favorites and he is infact impartial and does infact have respect to those chosen people and he saved them and gave no one else a chance or even let them hear the truth ……save a few and let everyone else burn by his Will alone and not that they chose it
The last thing he said is perfect lol
the other poor sinners are just never loved by God or even allowed to “ hear “ salvation and have any choice in the matter but yet he tells us this is how well all be judged in the end
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
Romans 2:6-11 NIV
but these people “those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: “
they only did that because god didn’t make them capable to do anything else but that they were born to do the evil he is now punishing them for and rewarding them for not what they did but what he created them to do just to do evil and be punished they never had any chance to be saved thier just forewood these poor living souls he created just for destruction by his chcoice ….not thier choices and actions nooooo not like this
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
But instead this judt and righteous God who is love ……..he chose favorites and he is infact impartial and does infact have respect to those chosen people and he saved them and gave no one else a chance or even let them hear the truth ……save a few and let everyone else burn by his Will alone and not that they chose it
The last thing he said is perfect lol
Lady, you have mankind wired. You should be in Vegas doing classes on the depravity of man.
You should try to get past it, and actually see what God did to remedy our problem.
Exactly Brother. Their kids don't hear their "theology." Their Kids hear "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved...."
We hear the " I am smarter and more special than you" garbage.
You should try to get past it, and actually see what God did to remedy our problem.
Exactly Brother. Their kids don't hear their "theology." Their Kids hear "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved...."
We hear the " I am smarter and more special than you" garbage.
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So, you don't realize that you imply God is deceitful?!
You really ought to brush up on the meaning of "if".
For example, "IF they continue" implies that they need NOT continue,
and "IF they turn" means they might turn--unless God is being tricky by making that promise!
IOW, "IF" is the fulcrum of faith, the condition that makes sinners blameworthy instead of God,
so that their punishment for disobeying was self-imposed and just.
Do we need to meditate on this truth for awhile, or are you ready to discuss the second Scripture?
[Note: Ignore #2,112, CC was acting up and cut off this reply.]
You really ought to brush up on the meaning of "if".
For example, "IF they continue" implies that they need NOT continue,
and "IF they turn" means they might turn--unless God is being tricky by making that promise!
IOW, "IF" is the fulcrum of faith, the condition that makes sinners blameworthy instead of God,
so that their punishment for disobeying was self-imposed and just.
Do we need to meditate on this truth for awhile, or are you ready to discuss the second Scripture?
[Note: Ignore #2,112, CC was acting up and cut off this reply.]
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Psalm 81:
10 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.
15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.
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10 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.
15 The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever.
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That does indeed seem akin to Jeremiah:
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."
Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."
Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
And these passages seem to support MFW more than TULIP.
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."
Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."
Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
And these passages seem to support MFW more than TULIP.
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And the truth is that no matter what you do or say, no matter how clearly you present and back up your argument with scripture, no matter how much ground you give trying to come to a common understanding, no matter what, you've already been labeled and will now face the wrath of the CDSC (Calvin Derangement Syndrome Cult). If you are not a "Calvinist" that makes no matter, they will tell you what you believe before destroying the most ridiculous version of "Calvinist belief" I've never heard even the most die hard Calvinist make. This same exact debate has been going for years here, and I've found that trying to have a rational and civil conversation about it here with this group is impossible. You can't have a good faith discourse with people that don't listen to what's being said and only attack the imaginary monsters they make up in their own minds. It's almost killed my view on the effectiveness of these conversations online, period.
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