Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[GWH]

If you had noticed why did you complain to me about a lack of explanation. I questioned you on the passage to see if you noticed anything "odd" and you came with with a complaint of lack of explanation.

3. I need nothing explained re Heb. 3:12-19.

4. Re Deut. 29: 4: We notice that Moses blames Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience on God.

5. Israel saw great miracles, "but" God blinded their understanding or "heart".

6. A great companion passage is Rom 1:18-23.

7. In the same way Light came into this DARK world but the Darkness did not comprehend it (Jn 1:5).

8. See also Matt. 13:11-15 wherein the unregenerate see and hear naturally but cannot see and hear spiritually because they themselves are Darkness.

9. Cf. Eph. 5:8, and their minds have been blinded by the evil one.

10. Cf. 2Cor. 4:4, and even the Lord blinds the eyes of non-elect.

11. Cf. Jn 12:39-40.

12. We learn that ultimately spiritual understanding comes from God himself and is graciously imparted to his chosen people inwardly by the Holy Spirit (Ps 119:18; Prov 9:10; Job 28:8; Isa 42:6-7; Lk 18:34; 24:45; Act 8:30-31; 1Cor 2:10; 2Cor 4:6; 1Jn 5:20) and withheld from the rest (cf. Lk 14:16-24).

13. The faculty of intellect or mind is also seated in the heart (Deut. 29:4).

14. Moses did not shy away from the tension between the twin truths of God's supreme sovereignty and man's moral/spiritual responsibility. He did not consider these truths to be mutually exclusive to each other but actually complementary to each other -- even though we cannot fully understand how God rules this world by working his perfect will into his moral creatures to accomplish his purposes.

15. Sixthly, this passage in Deut cleary demolishes various man-made universal concepts or constructs that God's love is unconditional and that God is not willing that any human being should perish. If Moses believed any of this, he could never have written what he did in vv. 4 and 9.

16. Lastly, the grace that God withheld from the Hebrews and that ultimately accounted for their rebellious, hostile spirit toward their Redeemer would have been effectual if He had granted that grace to them, because nothing changed with the Hebrews after they crossed the Jordan into the Land of Canaan, for Joshua told the people, while they were still on the wilderness side of the river, that they would not be able to serve the Lord (Josh 24:19). Clearly Moses in Deut. 29:4 implied that the Hebrews would have had spiritual eyes to see and ears to hear and an understanding heart if God had graciously granted those things to them.

17. In closing, this is a rather unique passage in scripture because it brings two different and seemingly contradictory concepts together, as mentioned earlier. And at the same time, the Word of God does not shy away from or downplay man's role of moral/spiritual duty to God in spite of his fatal spiritual condition.



My "lengthy commentary" was only 7 points. I doubt very, very seriously you extracted 10 more points from my exegesis. The only way you could is by your favored method of eisegesis. So, I'll take a pass. However, if you want to zoom in on any ONE of my points one at a time and address that one point in one post, I'll read what you have to say.

Okay, please state the Scripture and your commentary that you want me to discuss first.

 

[Rufus]

NKJ Deuteronomy 29:1-6 These are the words of the covenant which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb. 2 Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land--3 "the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. 4 "Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day. 5 "And I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn out on your feet. 6 "You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or similar drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.

Does anybody not see a problem here? The TULIP view loves to look at things simplistically, not ask seemingly obvious questions of the Text, and leave us with a capricious God who plays games with people.

YHWH showed you things He did before your eyes - You have seen [these things]
YHWH showed you these signs and great wonders - Your eyes have seen [them]
Your clothes lasted for 40 years
Your sandals lasted for 40 years
You've not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or similar drink SO YOU MAY KNOW I AM YHWH YOUR GOD

Yet YHWH has not given you a heart to perceive & ears to hear

Firstly, please do some language homework and ask why the LXX used "kai" to begin this sentence and note that "but" is not the main meaning for "kai" and there are other words that mean "but' so your "contrast" interpretation is more than questionable.

SO, YHWH does all these things for them in part so THEY MAY KNOW HIM but gives them no understanding of any of it. And this makes sense because YHWH is sovereign and can do what He wants to do no matter what, and who are we to question it, and God hates sinful men so of course He's going to play harsh games with them to prove how great He is with puny, disgusting little men He could obliterate at will.

Or maybe it's idiomatic, or maybe it's sarcastic, or maybe the people deserved and brought on themselves their lack of understanding, or...

Read some commentaries for goodness' sake. Do some thinking past the presuppositions.

Or balance (harmonize) with other Scriptures such as what sounds like a lament at their condition 29 'Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever! (Deut. 5:29 NKJ).

YHWH says Oh that they had such a heart in them - YHWH has not given them such a heart.

He's either extremely double-minded or we're not understanding Him correctly (like they didn't).

Also, one of the English definitions of "yet" is HOWEVER or NEVERTHELESS.

And, no, YHWH is not double-minded. Don't you know that God did eventually give his chosen people a NEW HEART under a promise of HIS New Covenant? Have you totally lost your memory?

 

[Rufus]

Okay, please state the Scripture and your commentary that you want me to discuss first.

Pick any one point in my argument and refute it with biblical proof.

 

[studier]

Now on to Deut! The first thing we notice about Moses' remarks in Deut 29: 4 is that he didn't attribute Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience to their unwillingness to obey, even though such unwillingness permeated the psyche of most of them. But to Moses' mind, this wasn't the primary cause of their spiritual problem. Rather, God sovereignly withheld grace from them!

Of course, the people deserved it and brought it upon themselves. Haven't you ever read that God opposes the proud ( and gives grace only to the humble? Do you need biblical proof of this fact?

The primary cause of their spiritual problem was that God sovereignly withheld grace from them.

The primary cause of God sovereignly withholding grace from them was they brought it upon themselves (but not by lack of faithfulness/obedience but because they were proud).

So, what comes first as primary cause, they brought it upon themselves or God sovereignly withholding grace?

Also, were they proud and obedient??

 

[NightTwister]

But what about the answer to the question?

Your question has more than one logical fallacy, including begging the question, non-sequitur, and ad hominem. What about using a term intended to marginalize people as extremists? You aren't going to answer for that?

 

[Rufus]

The primary cause of their spiritual problem was that God sovereignly withheld grace from them.

The primary cause of God sovereignly withholding grace from them was they brought it upon themselves (but not by lack of faithfulness/obedience but because they were proud).

So, what comes first as primary cause, they brought it upon themselves or God sovereignly withholding grace?

The absence of saving grace within most of the Hebrews' hearts had the inevitable result of them living according to their sin nature. Look what happened to Pharaoh after God withdrew his restraining grace from him.

Also, were they proud and obedient??

How can anyone be proud and not be disobedient? You're sounding desperate...

 

[cv5]

Your question has more than one logical fallacy, including begging the question, non-sequitur, and ad hominem. What about using a term intended to marginalize people as extremists? You aren't going to answer for that?

Sure man whatever you say.
But yea, super-determinists impute all kinds of blame to God implicitly or not. As does Satan.

 

[studier]

Also, one of the English definitions of "yet" is HOWEVER or NEVERTHELESS.

And, no, YHWH is not double-minded. Don't you know that God did eventually give his chosen people a NEW HEART under a promise of HIS New Covenant?

When I bring these things up, it's because I've been reading language tools for 2-3 decades and I see some potential meaning I don't think you typically look for.

Yes, I do know about the new heart and NC as you know well that I do. And it's some of this tension in the Deut29:4 and Deut5:29 language I brought up in questioning your usage of Deut29.

I'm experimenting with AI and after several queries to get it to get where I was asking it to get to, this is the nuance it came up with which may explain to you why I questioned "but" and simple "contrast" as you're arguing for in Deut29:2-4 where 4 begins with "kai" in the LXX as I said. IOW, I think there is some quite deep stuff there and not only do I think you're messing it up, but I think we should be letting the Text draw us into all of what's there rather than bickering at this surface level of attempted TULIP substantiation:

🧭 The Problem with “But” in Deut 29:4

In the LXX, Deuteronomy 29:4 begins:
καὶ οὐκ ἔδωκεν Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὑμῖν καρδίαν εἰδέναι...
“And the Lord your God has not given you a heart to understand…”

Most English versions render this “but the Lord has not given…” to signal a contrast with verses 2–3, where Israel saw the signs and wonders. But here’s the rub:

• καί is not inherently adversative. It’s a copulative conjunction—its default meaning is “and.”
• Translating it as “but” adds interpretive weight that isn’t strictly in the Greek. It’s not wrong, but it’s not neutral either.

🧠 Why “And Yet” Might Be Better

“And yet” preserves the connective force of καί while introducing the tension between what Israel saw and what they failed to grasp. It captures:

• The continuity of the narrative (they saw… and yet didn’t understand)
• The dissonance between external witness and internal comprehension
• The theological paradox: God revealed, but also withheld

It’s not just a contrast—it’s a tragic irony, and “and yet” lets that irony breathe.

🧬 Best Translation Options for καί in Deut 29:4

Option: “And”

• Pros: Most literal; preserves flow
• Cons: May obscure the tension

Option: “But”

• Pros: Highlights contrast
• Cons: Imposes adversative force not native to καί

Option: “And yet”

• Pros: Honors the connective and while signaling dissonance
• Cons: Slightly interpretive, but faithful to the rhetorical effect

Option: “Even though”

• Pros: Emphasizes paradox
• Cons: Leans concessive; may over-interpret

🧠 Verdict: “And yet” is the Goldilocks choice—faithful to the Greek, sensitive to the context, and evocative of the theological tension.


So, this is what I was getting at. Feel free to unwind it by making "yet" mean "but". I'd rather keep working to get at the depth of what He's telling us. You scratched some of the surface with the new heart and NC mention. I showed how Deut29:4 needs to be harmonized (@GWH should be proud) with Deut5:29. IMO this little word at the beginning of Deut29:4 is in part telling us to pay attention to what precedes 29:4 and to what succeeds it, part of which I highlighted earlier.

Like it or not, IMO we're looking at man's will again and both subtle and clear language of how God is dealing with it.

 

[sawdust]

Before regeneration the will of man is enslaved to sin. It is a bound, not a free will.

That is true which, is why He meets us with grace and truth so that we are enabled to see the truth for ourselves and make our own decision for or against. He does not meet us with regeneration which, is our salvation from death. You keep having God save us from death in order to save us from death.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

 

[NightTwister]

Sure man whatever you say.
But yea, super-determinists impute all kinds of blame to God implicitly or not. As does Satan.

Cool story.

 

[GWH]

Pick any one point in my argument and refute it with biblical proof.

Okay, but you do not seem to understand the dialectical method of hermeneutics is scientific:
the purpose is not to refute anything but rather to learn the truth.

I will begin with this excerpt from your post:

1. "The first thing we notice about Moses' remarks in Deut 29: 4 is that he didn't attribute Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience to their unwillingness to obey, even though such unwillingness permeated the psyche of most of them. But to Moses' mind, this wasn't the primary cause of their spiritual problem. Rather, God sovereignly withheld grace from them!"

My understanding is that you think Moses blamed Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience on God,
and you cite Rom. 1:18-23 as the NT companion passage.

I affirm focusing on the NT for the best understanding of doctrine, because the OT revelation was not as advanced,
but let us examine whether Moses said anything else that is relevant.

1. The pertinent pericope seems to begin with Deut. 28:1 & 15, "If you fully obey the Lord your God... God will set you high above
all the nations on earth... However, if you do not obey the Lord your God... all these curses will come upon you." This verse implies that the Israelites are free to obey or disobey.

2. Next we have the verse you cited/Deut. 29:4, "To this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see
or ears that hear." This sounds like God prevented the Israelites from obeying Him.

3. But then we come to Deut. 29:9, "Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do." This seems to indicate that the Israelites can follow or not follow the terms.

4. And then we arrive at the clearest statement of what Moses meant in Deut. 30:19b-20a, "I have set before you life and death,
blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children might live and that you may love the Lord your God." This obviously teaches that the Israelites are deemed to have MFW. However, would you like us now to go ahead and examine the Rom. 1:18-23 passage also?

 

[studier]

The absence of saving grace within most of the Hebrews' hearts had the inevitable result of them living according to their sin nature.

You have two primary causes stated:

1. God sovereignly withholding grace
2. The people brought it upon themselves

So, what's the primary cause of what's stated in Deut29:4:

1. Did God withhold grace first? OR
2. Were the people disobedient first

Then, how do you get that the peoples' will was not involved, especially since "they brought it upon themselves"?

And now, based upon what you said quoted above, did God provide saving grace to some of the Hebrews' hearts, so they didn't live according to their sin natures? So, is Deut29:4 speaking of just some of the Hebrews?

 

[Magenta]

Jesus is perfectly clear in saying that he who CHOOSES to sin is a slave to it.

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."

I think you have added to what Jesus said in John 8:34.

From Romans 6 verses 16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

 

[Kroogz]

Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin."

I think you have added to what Jesus said in John 8:34.

From Romans 6 verses 16-18 ~ Do you not know that you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Even a slave knows, hears and sees freedom. A slave might have to give up their "friends" and "family" to escape.....But every slave could try to escape.

 

[Rufus]

When I bring these things up, it's because I've been reading language tools for 2-3 decades and I see some potential meaning I don't think you typically look for.

Yes, I do know about the new heart and NC as you know well that I do. And it's some of this tension in the Deut29:4 and Deut5:29 language I brought up in questioning your usage of Deut29.

I'm experimenting with AI and after several queries to get it to get where I was asking it to get to, this is the nuance it came up with which may explain to you why I questioned "but" and simple "contrast" as you're arguing for in Deut29:2-4 where 4 begins with "kai" in the LXX as I said. IOW, I think there is some quite deep stuff there and not only do I think you're messing it up, but I think we should be letting the Text draw us into all of what's there rather than bickering at this surface level of attempted TULIP substantiation:

🧭 The Problem with “But” in Deut 29:4

In the LXX, Deuteronomy 29:4 begins:
καὶ οὐκ ἔδωκεν Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ὑμῖν καρδίαν εἰδέναι...
“And the Lord your God has not given you a heart to understand…”

Most English versions render this “but the Lord has not given…” to signal a contrast with verses 2–3, where Israel saw the signs and wonders. But here’s the rub:

• καί is not inherently adversative. It’s a copulative conjunction—its default meaning is “and.”
• Translating it as “but” adds interpretive weight that isn’t strictly in the Greek. It’s not wrong, but it’s not neutral either.

🧠 Why “And Yet” Might Be Better

“And yet” preserves the connective force of καί while introducing the tension between what Israel saw and what they failed to grasp. It captures:

• The continuity of the narrative (they saw… and yet didn’t understand)
• The dissonance between external witness and internal comprehension
• The theological paradox: God revealed, but also withheld

It’s not just a contrast—it’s a tragic irony, and “and yet” lets that irony breathe.

🧬 Best Translation Options for καί in Deut 29:4

Option: “And”

• Pros: Most literal; preserves flow
• Cons: May obscure the tension

Option: “But”

• Pros: Highlights contrast
• Cons: Imposes adversative force not native to καί

Option: “And yet”

• Pros: Honors the connective and while signaling dissonance
• Cons: Slightly interpretive, but faithful to the rhetorical effect

Option: “Even though”

• Pros: Emphasizes paradox
• Cons: Leans concessive; may over-interpret

🧠 Verdict: “And yet” is the Goldilocks choice—faithful to the Greek, sensitive to the context, and evocative of the theological tension.


So, this is what I was getting at. Feel free to unwind it by making "yet" mean "but". I'd rather keep working to get at the depth of what He's telling us. You scratched some of the surface with the new heart and NC mention. I showed how Deut29:4 needs to be harmonized (@GWH should be proud) with Deut5:29. IMO this little word at the beginning of Deut29:4 is in part telling us to pay attention to what precedes 29:4 and to what succeeds it, part of which I highlighted earlier.

Like it or not, IMO we're looking at man's will again and both subtle and clear language of how God is dealing with it.

"Like it or not" the contrast is clearly in the passage. It's utterly amazing that I have to explain this to an adult! Deut 29:3 talks about physical and visible signs, wonders that were actually seen and heard by the physical eyes and ears of the Hebrews. But v. 4 talks about things of the HEART -- things that are spiritual and invisible to all eyes except for God's! What the Hebrews did not do is see or hear (understand) God's Word -- his divine revelation within their heart. Therefore, the very clear contrast in the passage is between the physical signs and wonders that the Hebrews did see (understand) and spiritual truth that they did not see (understand) because, UNLIKE the signs and wonders, God never revealed that to them. So, in the one case, they were not blind to the signs and wonders due to God's revelation , but in the other they were because God hid that revelation from them! And this shouldn't surprise anyone since everyone is born spiritually blind; for all come into this world as DARKNESS itself.

 

[BillyBob]

So, you don't realize that you imply God is deceitful?!
You really ought to brush up on the meaning of "if".
For example, "IF they continue" implies that they need NOT continue,
and "IF they turn" means they might turn--unless God is being tricky by making that promise!
IOW, "IF" is the fulcrum of faith, the condition that makes sinners blameworthy instead of God,
so that their punishment for disobeying was self-imposed and just.

Do we need to meditate on this truth for awhile, or are you ready to discuss the second Scripture?

[Note: Ignore #2,112, CC was acting up and cut off this reply.]

Jer 18:8-10 Jer 18:12

 

[GWH]

Jer 18:8-10 Jer 18:12

Not sure why you replied with that Scripture, which was already covered as follows:

Okay, the first Scripture is Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching.

The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."

Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."

Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You have two primary causes stated:

1. God sovereignly withholding grace
2. The people brought it upon themselves

So, what's the primary cause of what's stated in Deut29:4:

1. Did God withhold grace first? OR
2. Were the people disobedient first

Then, how do you get that the peoples' will was not involved, especially since "they brought it upon themselves"?

And now, based upon what you said quoted above, did God provide saving grace to some of the Hebrews' hearts, so they didn't live according to their sin natures? So, is Deut29:4 speaking of just some of the Hebrews?

God dealt specifically with Moses because that is what the children of Israel wanted ... they wanted Moses to stand between themselves and God:

Exodus 20:

18And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.

21 And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.


Have you ever read Psalm 103:7?

Psalm 103:7 He [the LORD] made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

This was at the request of the people.


There were believers among the children of Israel (Joshua, Caleb, the 70 elders, etc., etc.), so not all "lacked good soil (heart)" ... yet the Lord dealt specifically with Moses in a manner that was unique to Moses as Moses was a foreshadow of the Lord Jesus Christ.

As pointed out, ALL the people wanted Moses to stand between them and God.

Deuteronomy is filled with passages wherein God tells the Israelites to hearken unto Him (or words to that effect) ... God would rain blessings upon the children of Israel if they hearkened unto Him ... and the children of Israel would suffer consequences if they turned from God.

Back in Deuteronomy 1, we are told of the failure of the children of Israel to trust in the Lord God to bring them into the promised land.

Deuteronomy 1:26 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God

The blessings of hearkening unto the Lord and the consequences of failing to hearken unto the Lord are contained throughout Deuteronomy (all of Scripture to be honest).

One of the consequences of turning from God to our own devices is a hardening of our heart and this is something that starts with us not holding to God. If we continue in rebellion, God gives us over to worse and worse consequences.

Because people fail to cleave to God, the result is a hardening of the heart. Romans 1 explains the process very succinctly ... suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... foolish heart becomes darkened ... failure to glorify God ... God gives up to uncleanness ... idolatry is engaged in ... God gives up to vile affections ... activities which are against nature ensues and no retention of God in their knowledge ... God gives over to reprobate mind.
.