Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

But God helps the children of light and the children of darkness to get out of bed every morning. As pointed out previously, God has numbered the days of all men w/o exception. Therefore, the ability or desire for anyone to rise and shine in the morning is a function of his Common Grace. And you must think that that grace is efficacious since you attribute God's power (grace) to your ability to plant your feet on the ground.

I don't see your point. I have stated grace is God's working policy. You're the one who seems to have trouble working out the power of grace. It can raise a man from the dead but can't set a human will free even for a moment in time? So God can only lift the big weights but can't lift the little ones?

So...do you believe that God has "freewill" since He cannot make choices contrary to his holy nature?

Do you actually apply any reasoning to what people say? Is God chaotic or free? Freedom produces order. It was Adam going outside the boundaries of his freedom that got us all in this mess.

 

[studier]

so like their Savior they will not be able sin

That's the favored view of most traditions.

But the discussions re: Jesus not being able to sin vs. being able not to sin as more heavily debated and due to how long it's been debated, are very customarily framed in the old Latin terminology and in part end up dealing with whether or not Jesus was exemplifying us or more so Adam.

My logic is not nearly what you say it is. So, I'm relaxing a bit in responding to much of what you say that is really not worthy of response.

I agree with @GWH and a few others who are dealing less with your rhetoric now. It's circular and endless.

In the old discussions and debates are some fascinating and much deeper truths to ponder. When we bring them back to Scriptures we ultimately end up in these surface-level arguments over this or that tradition's interpretation of things that are not really that interesting.

For example, we believe, or we don't. IF we believe, then most of the NC is written for us to explain what we are involved in and what is required of us. And contrary to what some have said in these threads including this one, most conditional-IF clauses do require contemplation, decisions and choices, as do the hundreds of commands in the NC Writings.

IOW, whether you like it or not, human volition is a big deal, and this ties back to the ages old discussions re: the first and second Adams.

 

[cv5]

I said this at the very beginning of the thread and was dismissed by the OP but until freedom is understood for what it is ie. perfect fulfillment of one's own place and power (all of which is designed and given by God).

Well spoken.
Every critter of field and forest is free.
But constrained within their "own place and power".

Their freedom is not unlimited nor boundless in terms of extent and effect.
Nor is ours.

 

[Cameron143]

And that is where those who don't think we can have free will make their first mistake. Freedom is not about being without limit or borders. Even the LORD God has His boundaries. You recognise this as I have heard you say "God is bound to His nature".

I said this at the very beginning of the thread and was dismissed by the OP but until freedom is understood for what it is ie. perfect fulfillment of one's own place and power (all of which is designed and given by God), then discussing free will is pointless. Real freedom has boundaries, if it didn't, we would have unending chaos.

Now we're back to what is the nature of the fallen natural man. You obviously believe that God must do something in order for man to believe according to your previous posts. From what I've gathered, you believe God intervenes to allow men to be able to choose so he can be a partaker of the divine. Our only difference is that I believe God intervenes by changing the nature which frees man to pursue God.

 

[cv5]

I have dealt with all your verses, they are most often eisegesis.
You are actually refuting your own argument.

They are most often chaos bombs, inchoate and addled, intentionally quixotic.

 

[HeIsHere]

They are most often chaos bombs, inchoate and addled, intentionally quixotic.

You have perfectly captured it.

Their position that God creates fallen man unable to respond to God's own invitation is so very ridiculous.

 

[Cameron143]

I have dealt with all your verses, they are most often eisegesis.

You are actually refuting your own argument.
Romans 1:16
It is the inherent truth and power in the Gospel message

If this is so, everyone who heard the gospel would be saved. This is proof that the power isn't inherent in the gospel, but in God.

 

[studier]

You claimed I added to scripture. I'm just seeing if you really believe that. The power of God is obviously God's power, as opposed to power exercised by someone else. Unto salvation tells us how the power of God is directed. The directing of the power is to those who believe. When power is employed it is manifested, or experienced in some way. Just like when you turn on the light switch the bulb lights up, when God turns on the lights, people get saved.

Yes I did.
Yes I do.
Agreed it is God's power.
Unto is "eis" which is telling us more of what the power is for or results in than how it's directed.
You're switching from "how" to "to" - so see just above.
You seem to be struggling with words (employed, manifested, experienced) but I get the gist.
Or we might say the power and the capacity for light in all the components are there available to be accessed by those who choose to use the God-given capacities to flip the switch. Which is quite similar to the sun which is there to be enjoyed by anyone who chooses to go out and enjoy it, but the lights are there 24/7 at least until He shuts down the system.

 

[HeIsHere]

Our only difference is that I believe God intervenes by changing the nature which frees man to pursue God.

He has to save man first so man can be saved.
Because being saved only belongs to the one God saved first so they can be saved?

Do I have that right?

 

[cv5]

Now we're back to what is the nature of the fallen natural man. You obviously believe that God must do something in order for man to believe according to your previous posts. From what I've gathered, you believe God intervenes to allow men to be able to choose so he can be a partaker of the divine. Our only difference is that I believe God intervenes by changing the nature which frees man to pursue God.

You have lost my friend. The "natural man" hoax has been debunked.

 

[HeIsHere]

If this is so, everyone who heard the gospel would be saved. This is proof that the power isn't inherent in the gospel, but in God.

Amazing.
God has a non-message for humanity to not really hear.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes I did.
Yes I do.
Agreed it is God's power.
Unto is "eis" which is telling us more of what the power is for or results in than how it's directed.
You're switching from "how" to "to" - so see just above.
You seem to be struggling with words (employed, manifested, experienced) but I get the gist.
Or we might say the power and the capacity for light in all the components are there available to be accessed by those who choose to use the God-given capacities to flip the switch. Which is quite similar to the sun which is there to be enjoyed by anyone who chooses to go out and enjoy it, but the lights are there 24/7 at least until He shuts down the system.

You play word games. What the power is for and results in is where it is directed. And power not manifested is dormant. Unless power is employed, it isn't experienced.

 

[BillyBob]

And contrary to what some have said in these threads including this one, most conditional-IF clauses do require contemplation, decisions and choices, as do the hundreds of commands in the NC Writings.

What you say is correct! However, as Jer 18:8 illustrates, God gives his people a choice knowing full well the condition of their heart. Knowing that they will not listen to Him.
They contemplate, and make a decision or choice as you say. But Jer 18:12 explains the decision that they reached and why.

God had not softened their heart. Therefore, they made a bad decision and it could not have been otherwise!
If that is your idea of MFW, then perhaps you should ask God to change your heart to make wise decisions.

 

[studier]

To be saved, man doesn't need to be free, but once he is saved he does. Hmmmm.

And your CDS is noted. Why is it that you feel having to label someone is of greater value than simply dealing with ideas? Would it help if I labeled your posts as evidence of you being a Pelagian heretic? I'm nothing if not amenable.

A bit tough for you to grasp. Understood. I can see your confusion.

Let's try again.

Based upon what God has provided in Christ, man is free to choose to be freed from imprisonment under sin and death.

As I said, Rom8:1 is dealing with this freedom from imprisonment. One of the ways to better understand the word typically translated as "condemnation" there is to know that it's speaking not of the verdict but the results of the verdict. Some translate it as "penal servitude" denoting the imprisonment.

FWIW, you're watching too much news and assimilating the silly arguments stated there. In case you haven't noticed these threads get turned into Calvinistic apologetics pretty quickly. I've read some posts from some who have been here for many years and how they noticed it come about some time ago.

So, I don't have some silly syndrome for noting how your views frequently match the T of TULIP when TULIP has become a topic of a thread and from which you try to distance yourself from for whatever reason. You're free to explain why you disagree and Scripture would help and in fact be welcomed.

In turn, I have no problem if you want to try to classify my beliefs. Being involved in these threads I frequently end up looking at various traditions once again after years away from them, considering how I might compare to them, and FWIW find differences with all of them and similarities in places with a few of them.

Finally, "heretic" is a big word people throw around too lightly. Actually, since I normally trend towards literalness, I'm not opposed to the word or concerned with the baggage it's accumulated over time. Here's why:

The Irony of the Word

The etymological root—“to choose”—highlights a deep irony: a heretic is someone who exercises volition, often in pursuit of truth, but ends up outside the bounds of accepted belief. In that sense, the term reflects both freedom and fracture.​

​

I believe in and value the freedom to choose especially in the pursuit of Truth. I'm not concerned about fracturing from non-truth, in fact in pursuing Truth under Grace it's inevitable to fracture from non-truth.

Your "T" similarity or identicalness - whatever the case may be - IMO is not Truth.

 

[Cameron143]

He has to save man first so man can be saved.
Because being saved only belongs to the one God saved first so they can be saved?

Do I have that right?

No. You and your buddies like word games and distortion of what people post. People aren't saved by God changing their nature. He makes them partakers of the divine nature. He births faith in them when the Spirit of God employs the word of God.

 

[Cameron143]

You have lost my friend. The "natural man" hoax has been debunked.

I once was lost, but...now I'm found.

 

[Cameron143]

Amazing.
God has a non-message for humanity to not really hear.

Well riddle me this Batman. If God's word goes forth and always accomplishes it's purpose as per Isaiah 55, and someone hears it and doesn't get saved, was the purpose salvation?

 

[HeIsHere]

No. You and your buddies like word games and distortion of what people post. People aren't saved by God changing their nature. He makes them partakers of the divine nature. He births faith in them when the Spirit of God employs the word of God.

It does not take a changed nature to accept the gift. I takes belief/trust, this is not a supernatural ability.

It is absolutely ridiculous to say a person cannot trust IN Christ Jesus and His offer of the personal gift of salvation and receive it.

Period

 

[Cameron143]

A bit tough for you to grasp. Understood. I can see your confusion.

Let's try again.

Based upon what God has provided in Christ, man is free to choose to be freed from imprisonment under sin and death.

As I said, Rom8:1 is dealing with this freedom from imprisonment. One of the ways to better understand the word typically translated as "condemnation" there is to know that it's speaking not of the verdict but the results of the verdict. Some translate it as "penal servitude" denoting the imprisonment.

FWIW, you're watching too much news and assimilating the silly arguments stated there. In case you haven't noticed these threads get turned into Calvinistic apologetics pretty quickly. I've read some posts from some who have been here for many years and how they noticed it come about some time ago.

So, I don't have some silly syndrome for noting how your views frequently match the T of TULIP when TULIP has become a topic of a thread and from which you try to distance yourself from for whatever reason. You're free to explain why you disagree and Scripture would help and in fact be welcomed.

In turn, I have no problem if you want to try to classify my beliefs. Being involved in these threads I frequently end up looking at various traditions once again after years away from them, considering how I might compare to them, and FWIW find differences with all of them and similarities in places with a few of them.

Finally, "heretic" is a big word people throw around too lightly. Actually, since I normally trend towards literalness, I'm not opposed to the word or concerned with the baggage it's accumulated over time. Here's why:

The Irony of the Word

The etymological root—“to choose”—highlights a deep irony: a heretic is someone who exercises volition, often in pursuit of truth, but ends up outside the bounds of accepted belief. In that sense, the term reflects both freedom and fracture.​

​

I believe in and value the freedom to choose especially in the pursuit of Truth. I'm not concerned about fracturing from non-truth, in fact in pursuing Truth under Grace it's inevitable to fracture from non-truth.

Your "T" similarity or identicalness - whatever the case may be - IMO is not Truth.

What God has provided in Christ has no application to the unsaved. So making your argument for free will for someone who is in Christ is ridiculous. And thanks for more of your Pelagian heresy explanation.

 

[sawdust]

Now we're back to what is the nature of the fallen natural man. You obviously believe that God must do something in order for man to believe according to your previous posts. From what I've gathered, you believe God intervenes to allow men to be able to choose so he can be a partaker of the divine. Our only difference is that I believe God intervenes by changing the nature which frees man to pursue God.

Thankyou, finally you seem to be understanding what I'm saying.

The difference is you have God saving us in order to save us. He doesn't have to change our nature (ie.human nature). Our human nature is found in our soul, created in the image and likeness of God. He's not looking to change our human nature, to do that would make us something not us. It's why the scriptures refer to us as souls and not spirits. Our souls are being saved by the transforming power of God's word. All souls ought to have the character of Christ but we don't because we were given free will. It's the price of freedom.

The sin nature is in the flesh, a corruption that seeks only to serve self hence, is against the Spirit. Rom.7:23 & Gal.5:17 That corruption cannot abide with God hence we are born with no spiritual capacity (God is Spirit) which, is why we must be born again. But we are not born wicked, we become wicked if there were no grace and truth given (which would never happen because it's not in God's nature to withhold that which is needed) or if grace and truth is rejected. This is the doctrine of total depravity. Apart from grace we are locked into our sin nature which deceives our minds and that keeps us in the dark. Rom.7 God shines light into that darkness with the truth and grace enables a man to function as if (just like Adam originally) he had no sin nature while the Lord presents Him with the truth. In this way who he truly is, a lover of righteousness or a lover of darkness, is revealed. Jn.3:19-21 There are things we have to learn before we are even ready to hear the Gospel. This is why the Spirit is in the world teaching about righteousness, sin and judgment. Jn.16:8 Those who learn from the Father about righteousness, sin and judgement come to the light (drawn like a moth to a flame) and are given to Christ. Jn.6:44-45

There are only two types of people in this world, believers and unbelievers. God meets us with grace and truth to reveal which one we are. There are believers out there who don't know they are believers yet which, is why we continue to preach the Good News.