Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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G

GWH

Groovy
#3,222
Oct 19, 2024
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#3,222
Inquisitor said:
Why are there no prophets in the church age?

Sola Scripture promotes the ministries and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

What happened to the church?
Click to expand...
Ephesians 4:11-13 indicates the role of prophet still exists, but the purpose is to preach
the Gospel and didache rather than to foretell anything, because the only remaining future event
is the Second Coming, which even Jesus did not know when it would occur.
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#3,224
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#3,224
Rufus said:
Oh...I agree totally. But that is what FWers believe because in their world God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart until after Pharaoh hardened his own, otherwise God would have "forced" Pharaoh's hand and caused the king to sin. God simply mimicked the king. :rolleyes: However, God's hardening of Pharaoh was how His "mighty hand" compelled him to let His people go (Ex 3:19-20)!
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Regarding pharaoh, this MFWer (never omit the M!) believes he hardened his own heart against cooperating with God
and thus will be justly condemned for his sins, but that God cooperated with pharaoh by allowing him to resist GW
for the additional reason that it would further His POS to provide Messiah via the Jewish culture.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
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studier said:
RE: 1Tim2 c.f. Is55

Please anyone feel free to modify any point to make it clearer.

I know I don’t have to invite anyone to disagree with it and mock it along with anyone who may agree with it.

OK, if we delete all the less than immaterial rhetoric from this post – estimated to be about 90% of it - we’re left with a proposition about Scripture something like this:
  • 1Tim2:4-6 does not tell us that God desires all of humanity (“men”) to be saved
  • The proposal that this is substantiated by Isa55:9-13 which tells us God’s Word does not return to Him empty but will accomplish what God desires and achieve the purpose for which God sent it
We’re left to tie this together which I assume goes something like this:
  • God’s Word-Gospel will accomplish what God desires and achieve the purpose for which God sent it.
  • God’s Word-Gospel does not save all men
  • Therefore, God does not desire to save all men
  • Therefore, 1Tim2:4 cannot mean that God desires to save all men
I have many questions and observations and angles to approach this from and will only provide a few:

In the context of Is55 I see this:
  • Is55:1 an offer to come and receive abundant sustenance without cost – a picture of grace.
  • Isa55:2 A question why people work so hard for things that don’t satisfy them – which sounds like Jesus in John6 speaking about giving men eternal life
  • Is55:3 Commands to listen and come to YHWH and you will live, and He will make an everlasting covenant with you based in the Davidic promises – pictures salvation and eternal covenant and Messianic promises
  • Is55:4-5 leadership to the nations – this is Messianic Kingship per Davidic promises
  • Is55:6-7 a call to repentance
  • Is55:8-9 God’s transcendent thoughts and ways
  • Is55:10-11 God’s word accomplishes what He desires
  • Is55:12-13 restoration of creation
  • Is55 is an offer of salvation to men to listen, hear, repent, and obey, all of which is involved in and is a picture of faith. God’s Word will accomplish this offered salvation which includes bringing about the restoration of the creation and provision of Messianic leadership for the nations under the Davidic King pursuant to the Davidic Covenant. Isaiah55 is as close a picture of the Salvation Gospel of Jesus Christ as we get in the Hebrew Scriptures.
  • 1Tim2:4 is in line with Is55. God desires all men to be saved. As in Is55 the offer is to all men. As in Is55, being saved involves listening to God, hearing God, repenting and believing God and accepting His offer to come to Him for salvation which includes enjoying the abundance of the restored creation under the leadership of the Davidic, Messianic King Jesus.
  • Saying God does not desire all men to be saved is like saying God’s does not desire all men to listen to Him, repent, believe and obey Him and enjoy His restored eternal creation and Messianic King.
  • The volitional response of men is in the salvation of men in Is55 and inherent everywhere else including 1Tim2.
  • God desires/wills all men to be saved, sends His Word/Spirit as rain - Is55 - on all. And as He wills, it produces growth in good soil but not on rocks or poor soil which depict God’s allowance of satanic activity and the volition of men Luke8.
  • God allows volitional mankind to be rocks and poor soil and not accept and not abide in His will and Word
  • God will not allow volitional creatures to prevent His will for His salvation plan, cosmic restoration, and Messianic Kingship over all His restored creation to be enjoyed by volitional men who have chosen to accept/receive/take His gracious offer of salvation through faith.
  • Neither God’s material creation nor God’s salvation plan can reject His will. God’s Messianic King functions perfectly according to God’s will and does not reject it. Volitional mankind on the other hand can and does reject God’s will.
  • God’s desires are multifaceted. God’s Word agrees with God’s multifaceted desires.
  • Proof-texting a few verses of Scripture apart from context most often misses the point(s).
Click to expand...
More doublespeak! Then how come all men aren't saved in the distributive sense, since Isa 55 tells us that the word that goes forth from God's mouth will not return to him void but WILL achieve the purpose for which he sent it? Or was God's purpose to save and not save? But how can that be according to how FWers interpret 1Tim 2? 1Tim 2:3-9 does not address man's volition; for Paul was telling Timothy what God DESIRES. You read man's will into the passage. Besides, Christ became the ransom

And I see that you totally ignored the analogy in the passage, which is not surprising. Isa 55 is teaching the EFFICACY of the power of God's word. Just as God's power is effective in the physical world, so it is in the spiritual realm as well (vv. 10-11).

In addition to what I just said immediately above, there's more proof of the efficacy of God's grace/power is in v. 12 that speaks of the joy and peace of the redeemed. And why will they be joyous and peaceful? It's due to what the prophet just wrote in vv. 10-11.

So, this Isaiah passage in its immediate context has nothing to do with God's purpose "to save and not to save". The focus is on salvation which God promises to provide by the efficacy of His grace/power. (Translate: Israel's future under the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant promises.)
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
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Feb 17, 2024
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#3,227
GWH said:
Regarding pharaoh, this MFWer (never omit the M!) believes he hardened his own heart against cooperating with God
and thus will be justly condemned for his sins, but that God cooperated with pharaoh by allowing him to resist GW
for the additional reason that it would further His POS to provide Messiah via the Jewish culture.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. I provided the chronological order of the narrative in which God first hardened the king's heart after God predicted in Ex 3 that the king would not let the people go unless a MIGHTY HAND COMPELLED him. (And that "mighty hand" was not Pharaoh's will!) Therefore, Pharaoh "cooperated" with God's will, again proving that man's will is always compatible with God's -- either for better or for worse! In the case of Pharaoh, it was for worse!
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
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studier said:
Thanks.
Over my head. Trying to chew gum at the moment.
So disappointing. I relinquished, gave you the floor and cooperated and provided data for your use.
I even supplied Lexical definitions at the link I provided which we can use to check your tips.
I'm pretty good at [spinning scriptures to give the appearance of] nuances.
I'm also fairly geared up on election thanks to these threads.
Click to expand...
FTFY!
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Rufus said:
Which speaks pointedly to mankind's helpless condition, doesn't it?
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Not to the free will crowd. They needed no help, thank you very much.

Let us never forget that their claim is man can obey from their incurably wicked heart whereas Scripture says the exact opposite.

People who want to make it about what colour of socks they wear or what to have for lunch have missed the point entirely.

Or shall we simply say that they are out to lunch LOL

:D
 
Magenta

Magenta

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HeIsHere said:
I think this fits in here...

God will show mercy on whomsoever He wills...

Reformed Camp: Oh good! That must mean me, my church friends, and a few others around the world!
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Has God shown no mercy to you? You ought to be ashamed for the way you malign God. Are you? Likely not. In your books He is unfair.
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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#3,233
Magenta said:
Not to the free will crowd. They needed no help, thank you very much.

Let us never forget that their claim is man can obey from their incurably wicked heart whereas Scripture says the exact opposite.
Click to expand...

actually this is a misrepresentation of what we believe.

we do not believe this, we believe God must intervine and bring us to our knees, as the tax collector..


People who want to make it about what colour of socks they wear or what to have for lunch have missed the point entirely.
Click to expand...
Or shall we simply say that they are out to lunch LOL

:D
Click to expand...
or you could just say the truth, and not act like so many others do thinking you have got it all figured out.
 
BillyBob

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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lrs68 said:
What if your Verse read God chose for Christians to be in Jesus?
Aren't Christians conformed to the image of Jesus?
Yes!
So is it possible that Verse is not about Christians being elected but rather Jesus was elected to be whom Christians would be conformed to?
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All of your "what ifs" will not change the word of God!
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#3,236
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#3,236
Rufus said:
Nonsense. I provided the chronological order of the narrative in which God first hardened the king's heart after God predicted in Ex 3 that the king would not let the people go unless a MIGHTY HAND COMPELLED him. (And that "mighty hand" was not Pharaoh's will!) Therefore, Pharaoh "cooperated" with God's will, again proving that man's will is always compatible with God's -- either for better or for worse! In the case of Pharaoh, it was for worse!
Click to expand...
Again, any compelling God did was in order to provide Messiah so that everyone including pharaoh might be saved,
NOT so that anyone would be damned to hell (per Eze. 33:11, etc.)
.
 
S

studier

Well-known member
#3,238
Apr 18, 2024
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#3,238
Rufus said:
More doublespeak! Then how come all men aren't saved in the distributive sense, since Isa 55 tells us that the word that goes forth from God's mouth will not return to him void but WILL achieve the purpose for which he sent it? Or was God's purpose to save and not save? But how can that be according to how FWers interpret 1Tim 2? 1Tim 2:3-9 does not address man's volition; for Paul was telling Timothy what God DESIRES. You read man's will into the passage. Besides, Christ became the ransom

And I see that you totally ignored the analogy in the passage, which is not surprising. Isa 55 is teaching the EFFICACY of the power of God's word. Just as God's power is effective in the physical world, so it is in the spiritual realm as well (vv. 10-11).

In addition to what I just said immediately above, there's more proof of the efficacy of God's grace/power is in v. 12 that speaks of the joy and peace of the redeemed. And why will they be joyous and peaceful? It's due to what the prophet just wrote in vv. 10-11.

So, this Isaiah passage in its immediate context has nothing to do with God's purpose "to save and not to save". The focus is on salvation which God promises to provide by the efficacy of His grace/power. (Translate: Israel's future under the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant promises.)
Click to expand...
Belief in Christ for eternal life is in 1Tim1:16. 1Tim contains all the verses in 1Tim.

Is55 in context is teaching about the Word of God accomplishing His Salvation of men and the creation. His Word not only has efficacy but is effective in accomplishing His Plan. Human will cannot prevent it being made effective.

The offer is made to everyone who thirsts [and eats]. Appeals are being made to their reasoning and volition. Human will is able to accept or reject the offer even though God desires that none reject Him.

You know there are distinctions within God's will. I accept that you disagree with the way I and other traditions interpret 1Tim.
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#3,239
Oct 19, 2024
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#3,239
Magenta said:
Not to the free will crowd. They needed no help, thank you very much.

Let us never forget that their claim is man can obey from their incurably wicked heart whereas Scripture says the exact opposite.

People who want to make it about what colour of socks they wear or what to have for lunch have missed the point entirely.

Or shall we simply say that they are out to lunch LOL

:D
Click to expand...
Yes, which is why you should never omit "moral" before "free will".
We are concerned about salvation of souls, not socks for heaven's sakes!
 
S

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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#3,240
Cameron143 said:
If it be hid, it is hid to those that are lost. At least hid to those who are need understanding.
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I understood some time ago your belief that you have the Truth and many to most others do not. Are you sure you desire to add that last sentence? You wouldn't be the first around here to say those with different understandings than yours are not saved.
 
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