Christian mysticism?

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#61
Well, I see the fruit of the HS actually manifested by Christians including on CC,
so I don't know why you don't also see it actually occurring.
My guess is that you are looking for miracles,
but Scripture says we must be content with walking by faith.
I agree that the fruit of the Spirit being manifested is a part of what is described in John 14. Is this the extent of your experience of God? Do you believe this constitutes the extent of what John 14 encompasses?
Your guess is wrong, but since we're on the topic, are miracles included? How about the example I gave? Is Jesus' voice only heard in the reading of scripture? Is the voice ever audible? Is there a small still voice? When our understanding is opened and revelation given, is this Jesus' voice? What is your experience of these things?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,650
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#62
People tend to fear what they do not understand, and retreat from it before understanding. The union of every believer to Christ is a mystical union with a very real spiritual reality. Relating to an invisible God requires it to be so. If we cannot engage with God on a spiritual level we cannot worship Him, nor can we know Him. If it is true that God is at work in us, willing and doing of His good pleasure, how else can we know what He is doing and work out what He is performing? Additionally, any outward conformity to the image of Christ begins with the inward reality of a changed heart. We would all do well to learn the spiritual nature of ourselves and the blessings that come from the inside out.
I wouldn't call it mystical since it's outlined in scripture clearly.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#63
I wouldn't call it mystical since it's outlined in scripture clearly.
And yet you can't fully explain it either.

I respect that people have different understandings of what is mystical and mysticism. What I don't understand is why people shy away from what scripture clearly teaches. God is a spirit. This reality necessitates an immaterial relationship. I'm just trying to find out what people's level of experience is; not to expose or shame anyone, but to suggest there is much more to a relationship with God than many have come to experience.
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,235
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USA-TX
#64
I agree that the fruit of the Spirit being manifested is a part of what is described in John 14. Is this the extent of your experience of God? Do you believe this constitutes the extent of what John 14 encompasses?
Your guess is wrong, but since we're on the topic, are miracles included? How about the example I gave? Is Jesus' voice only heard in the reading of scripture? Is the voice ever audible? Is there a small still voice? When our understanding is opened and revelation given, is this Jesus' voice? What is your experience of these things?
Agreement is great!
Yes, it is the extent of my experience of God, which begins with creation and conscience.
Yes, I believe this is the extent of what all of John encompasses, denoted as Word, Light, Love and HS.
No, miracles are not included other than creation, although they are not necessarily excluded either;
they are just rarely experienced or not normative. I missed seeing what example you gave.
I would be very skeptical of someone hearing the voice of Jesus or repeating Paul's D. Rd. experience.
I am content with perceiving the Word of the Lord in GW (and happy those are my initials :^).
The extent of experiencing GW is indicated in Eph. 3:14-19 and Phil. 3:8-20.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,557
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#65
I think there are mysteries which are hidden realities yet to be revealed. Some are gifted with the understanding needed to explain mysteries. Like Paul, when he said "But I show you a mystery..." It seems like God's nature to reveal mysteries to people for His own pleasure and in His own timing.

I think this is where many believers fall off the train: they think God has shown all (in the scriptures) or will show all (because of association). No. Just like we all are not given the same measure of grace we are not given the same measure of understanding. Also, if reason were the only thing needed to ascertain all the spiritual mysteries about God then philosophers and language professors would be our highpriests.

But built into this template is a central imperative: the Oneness of the Body. Each measure of grace in every part of the body is for the benefit of the body as a whole. The Lord requires dependence upon one another. But this does not mean that all parts of the body can receive the grace given to another.

For example: last night I had a conversation with a young Baptist minister about the grace of the apostolic being still active today. He thought only 14 apostles were named in scripture. Through much discussion we got to the point where he let me show him that Silas and Timothy (among others) are actually called "apostles" in the written word. He blocked me. Ha! With that attitude he has no chance to receive the fullness of the mystery of the Body of Christ as revealed through each part.

To conclude: if one is a mystic then it is expected that the Lord would have them either 1) share what they have been given or 2) operate out of the increased measure of grace they have personally received. The "old man on the mountain top" symbolism only works if the man returns to the people to share what he received (like Moses, Jesus, John, etc.) or if he applies his understanding toward the edification of the body of Christ.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,459
3,534
113
#66
In John 14:23, Jesus makes an incredible statement. He says that those who keep His commandments will receive the love of the Father and that the Father will come and pitch His tent with them and tabernacle with them. What exactly does this look like? Is this simply true but nonexperiential? Or is there real and manifest spiritual realities that attend this promise?
I have had Jesus appear to me and we ate and drank together for a little bit
Jesus states, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
23,245
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63
#67
Agreement is great!
Yes, it is the extent of my experience of God, which begins with creation and conscience.
Yes, I believe this is the extent of what all of John encompasses, denoted as Word, Light, Love and HS.
No, miracles are not included other than creation, although they are not necessarily excluded either;
they are just rarely experienced or not normative. I missed seeing what example you gave.
I would be very skeptical of someone hearing the voice of Jesus or repeating Paul's D. Rd. experience.
I am content with perceiving the Word of the Lord in GW (and happy those are my initials :^).
The extent of experiencing GW is indicated in Eph. 3:14-19 and Phil. 3:8-20.
In one way, your contentment is admirable, but your complacency is just sad. There is much more to eternal life than you know, and even care to know.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,459
3,534
113
#68
In one way, your contentment is admirable, but your complacency is just sad. There is much more to eternal life than you know, and even care to know.
Yes there is so much more and some of it can only be known through a divine encounter by God, it is respectable to be sola scripture but God is also a personal God he wants to have an actual personal expereince with his children which is why he manifests to some while not to others because if your not open to it then he won't force it

If being a Christian mystic relies on both God's word and the word coming to life such as Jesus showing up to someone or having one seek more than just mere faith but something more something deeper then it seems to me being a Christian mystic is what we should strive for.

Some are content with where they are in their faith, me however no way I want more I want to go further with him to the point where he is as real to me as you and I I am not ok with mere faith alone I want something deeper than that.

There is a kind of love called agape love that is used often to describe God's love because it is a much deeper level of love than what we know.if there is agape love I wonder if there is agape faith if there is maybe a word for a deeper fellowship and faith with him than what we know?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,459
3,534
113
#69
Our western culture has become philosophically very left brain elevating, and somewhat right-brain indifferent, including many in the western church. Mystics seek to access and use their right brain skills in their seeking of God. Just as Christian theologians can misuse their left brain skills to reason poorly and to become deceived into embracing teaching that is logically and theologically unsound, so too mystics can misuse their right brain skills and intuit poorly and become deceived into surrendering to communion that is spiritually and soulishly unsound, communing with demons pretending to be angels of light.

A balanced spirituality seeks God with both the left and right sides of the brain - love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind (i.e. left and right) and strength.

Many left brain dominant people seem to be suspicious of the mysticism of right brain dominant and left-right functional Christians, but do not apply the same suspicious scepticism to their own left brain dominant theological reasoning, which can also lead astray. These people don't seem to understand the working of their own two-sided brains and their own need to use both sides in a balanced and Jesus-following way..

Left brain vs. right brain: Characteristics, functions, and myths
View attachment 277645
Medical News Today
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com › articles
I actually have brain damage on the frontal lobe of my brain twice in the same spot so I asm not sure if that has something to do with how I operate in thr spirit and God's word but if I am not mistaken we only use ten percent of our brain at a time so perhaps those who use their left brain simply do not have the capaxity to use their right side and vise versa?
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,235
1,234
113
USA-TX
#70
I think there are mysteries which are hidden realities yet to be revealed. Some are gifted with the understanding needed to explain mysteries. Like Paul, when he said "But I show you a mystery..." It seems like God's nature to reveal mysteries to people for His own pleasure and in His own timing.

I think this is where many believers fall off the train: they think God has shown all (in the scriptures) or will show all (because of association). No. Just like we all are not given the same measure of grace we are not given the same measure of understanding. Also, if reason were the only thing needed to ascertain all the spiritual mysteries about God then philosophers and language professors would be our highpriests.

But built into this template is a central imperative: the Oneness of the Body. Each measure of grace in every part of the body is for the benefit of the body as a whole. The Lord requires dependence upon one another. But this does not mean that all parts of the body can receive the grace given to another.

For example: last night I had a conversation with a young Baptist minister about the grace of the apostolic being still active today. He thought only 14 apostles were named in scripture. Through much discussion we got to the point where he let me show him that Silas and Timothy (among others) are actually called "apostles" in the written word. He blocked me. Ha! With that attitude he has no chance to receive the fullness of the mystery of the Body of Christ as revealed through each part.

To conclude: if one is a mystic then it is expected that the Lord would have them either 1) share what they have been given or 2) operate out of the increased measure of grace they have personally received. The "old man on the mountain top" symbolism only works if the man returns to the people to share what he received (like Moses, Jesus, John, etc.) or if he applies his understanding toward the edification of the body of Christ.
Your example of the Baptist minister illustrates the role semantics plays in hermeneutics.
In this case, the "blockage" was due to failing to understand that words may have multiple meanings.
There were 12 original apostles, minus Judas and plus Paul, in the sense of being personally chosen by Jesus as assistants,
but because "apostle" can mean "one who is sent" (especially with an authoritative message), it may refer to any missionary
as per the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,235
1,234
113
USA-TX
#71
In one way, your contentment is admirable, but your complacency is just sad. There is much more to eternal life than you know, and even care to know.
That is exactly the point made by the Scripture I cited if you cared to read them,
and I'm sure the same is true of you, but I am patient rather than complacent
as I look forward to experiencing heaven (Col. 1:9-12).
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
23,245
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#72
That is exactly the point made by the Scripture I cited if you cared to read them,
and I'm sure the same is true of you, but I am patient rather than complacent
as I look forward to experiencing heaven (Col. 1:9-12).
Eternal life isn't synonymous with heaven. Eternal life is synonymous with knowing God. The reason we have become partakers of the divine nature is so we can know God. We can do that in the here and now.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,557
2,075
113
#73
Your example of the Baptist minister illustrates the role semantics plays in hermeneutics.
In this case, the "blockage" was due to failing to understand that words may have multiple meanings.
There were 12 original apostles, minus Judas and plus Paul, in the sense of being personally chosen by Jesus as assistants,
but because "apostle" can mean "one who is sent" (especially with an authoritative message), it may refer to any missionary
as per the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).
You're slightly correct.

Any way, he could not tolerate the use of "apostle" for anyone beyond the twelve and Paul. He said it didn't exist. I even suggested we stick to a text-only-approach to support our points. So, I showed him examples from the scripture (several places). I believe he was embarrassed and offended so he blocked me. Of course, out of the gate he wondered if I was really saved because I wasn't Baptist so... he was fully entrenched in his traditions. Poor kid.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,557
2,075
113
#74
Eternal life isn't synonymous with heaven. Eternal life is synonymous with knowing God. The reason we have become partakers of the divine nature is so we can know God. We can do that in the here and now.
This is Jesus speaking: "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
4,917
680
113
#75
I actually have brain damage on the frontal lobe of my brain twice in the same spot so I asm not sure if that has something to do with how I operate in thr spirit and God's word but if I am not mistaken we only use ten percent of our brain at a time so perhaps those who use their left brain simply do not have the capaxity to use their right side and vise versa?
You can train both sides of the brain.
 
Jul 7, 2022
12,190
5,346
113
Almost Heaven West Virginia
#76
It involves practices and theological understandings aimed at preparing the individual for, and facilitating, an intimate encounter with the divine. This encounter is often described as a union with God...
  • which to me is what it should be in general anyways a intimate personal and interactive relationship but maybe I am not understanding it does anyone have any insight on this?


The verse that comes to mind my friend is Beware, lest any man spoil you with philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8

Since before I was born, there's been a growing movement that I was introduced to.
When I was a boy, my older sister had a sign on her bedroom door, "Do Not Disturb. Meditating"

This spurred my curiosity so I asked her what that was?
She told me how she does it and it starts with repeating her mantra over and over again.
I asked her what that was?
"Oh, I can't tell you. It's not permitted to tell anyone my mantra. It's a secret".

This only made me more curious.
After getting Mom's permission, She invited me to her TM Transcendental Meditation group that was led by disciples of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He popularized Meditation in the Western countries.

Spirits brought famous celebrities to connect with the Yogi and spread his philosophy and practice of meditation throughout the rest of the world.
Meditation was already a standard practice throughout the continents of Asia and India.
Why?
Meditation is the essential practice for "summoning gods" in the Hindu, Buddhist and other polytheistic religions.

I was taught at the series of classes that meditation was a scientific, "self help"* practice with a number of practical health benefits.
They couched the classes in technical terms while using a lot of metaphysical metaphors.
This makes it ideal for promoting it through modern medicine since they both have that in common. People are persuaded that they are both scientifically based and have their application in reliable truth based results. They respect western gurus called physicians, who are unwittingly disciples of one of the wealthiest families in the world. This family established their religion in medical colleges. They mix some truth with lies and the outcome is the love for money and incredible wealth.

Since the West utterly trusts their Gurus of the metaphysical world of medicine and science so called, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was told by his spirit guide that he should return to America and promote TM in such a manner and with similar scientific, health care terminology.

The scores of Indian gurus who moved to the USA to spread Hinduism were rejected because of our Biblical Christian Baptist influences.
They did not become wealthy gaining followers, so they returned to India. When Maharishi did so, his spirit guide taught him how to become financially successful.
Guess what?
It worked!
The Maharishi's TM became the standard practice that gave the example for Hinduism "Christian" Mysticism all over the christianized world.

The guru started thousands of satellite groups, his own university, was embassador of Hinduism to major celebrities and political leaders. He got a scientific study or two published and persuaded the AMA and all the medical colleges to promote it. Now the medical colleges throughout the West and their outgoing MDs are trained with Hinduism to inoculate their patients against Jesus Christ.
You will have a hard time finding a Dr tell you that is what happened, but that's the magic of this integrative religion. It adapted to the West and persuaded it was a good healthy option.
This is a perfect marriage with their Christless religion of science falsely so called, "health care". Chemicals/ drugs/ pharmakeia are not healing nutrients.
In regards to the practice of SO MUCH of modern medicine that people trust, more than the Almighty Creator of scientific laws and health.


Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Jesus Himself created us and designed us to receive of Him through creation, that which brings lasting health. Yet people are foolishly decided by stupid UN-"scientific" studies that chemicals are the solution, that meditations are the solutions.

God the Holy Spirit gave His Word to think about, to meditate upon!
Satanic demons like the one represented in the work of art above tell us to empty our minds and chant vain repetitions of demonic names.
I identify as the warrior, because I actually am one, holding the sword of the Spirit in hand cleaving usunder through his joints and marrow. I hate the devils of India that have been summoned to the shores of America!
Many of us have loved ones who became victims of the damned demons and I will continue to fight them until the Lord returns and casts them into the pit of Hell!

Back to the adolescent period of my personal experience with Meditation.
As the program progressed, we were groomed to take part in an elite initiation, that promised to make us healthier and better than others.
At the completion of the series, over a period of many weeks, the night had come for the initiation and completion of the Transcendental program.
We were to be given our own special mantra in the back room that had a sign. No entry was allowed. I thought it might be the office where money was kept.
Everything in the school was dead silent. Nobody was speaking ...out loud.
I was led by the hand by one of the teachers, much to my surprise to the door where entry was strictly forbidden. It was a mystery.
What was beyond in this forbidden area off limits to students?
Why did we have to go back here to receive the special word that we were told to never tell anyone, not even our parents?

As I entered, it was dark, expecting the teacher to turn on the light. It was lit only by candles placed close to objects upon the counters surrounding the room. My eyes needed time to adjust to the darkness. Smoke of Incense streamed up from the objects displayed eerily upon their platforms.
Around the dark chamber were statues that I did not want to look directly upon. I could not believe my eyes as I wondered why the teacher was teaching a science and this seemed so surreal.
I was led by the hand to one of the objects and told to kneel down on my knees before it for a secret ceremony.
It was a terrifying image with grotesque features like out of an H.P. Lovecraft story.
My teacher led me to begin the meditation. She told me that secret word to speak out loud over and over again for several minutes. Then I was to continue the word silently, bowing before the monstrous idol.
After the religious ceremony, I was released to return home.
That shook me so badly that I never returned. Nor could I speak if this to my parents.

The twisted horror of that encounter compelled me to look up the word at a later date. My research resulted in finding a record of the words used as mantras. Surprisingly, it was from Sanskrit, a dead written language of the Hindu religion, their bibles.

I discovered the word that I was given to chant repeatedly was the name of a demon!
I was taught how to summon a demon to become possessed and controlled.

This is Hinduism rebranded for westerners, called "christian" mysticism.
 
Oct 19, 2024
6,235
1,234
113
USA-TX
#77
Eternal life isn't synonymous with heaven. Eternal life is synonymous with knowing God. The reason we have become partakers of the divine nature is so we can know God. We can do that in the here and now.
Well, Scripture sometimes equates heaven with eternal life, although yes, usually EL is viewed as beginning with conversion
(here and now) and heaven with resurrection.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
23,245
7,901
113
63
#78
Well, Scripture sometimes equates heaven with eternal life, although yes, usually EL is viewed as beginning with conversion
(here and now) and heaven with resurrection.
Appreciate the discussion.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
21,459
3,534
113
#80
The verse that comes to mind my friend is Beware, lest any man spoil you with philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8

Since before I was born, there's been a growing movement that I was introduced to.
When I was a boy, my older sister had a sign on her bedroom door, "Do Not Disturb. Meditating"

This spurred my curiosity so I asked her what that was?
She told me how she does it and it starts with repeating her mantra over and over again.
I asked her what that was?
"Oh, I can't tell you. It's not permitted to tell anyone my mantra. It's a secret".

This only made me more curious.
After getting Mom's permission, She invited me to her TM Transcendental Meditation group that was led by disciples of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. He popularized Meditation in the Western countries.

Spirits brought famous celebrities to connect with the Yogi and spread his philosophy and practice of meditation throughout the rest of the world.
Meditation was already a standard practice throughout the continents of Asia and India.
Why?
Meditation is the essential practice for "summoning gods" in the Hindu, Buddhist and other polytheistic religions.

I was taught at the series of classes that meditation was a scientific, "self help"* practice with a number of practical health benefits.
They couched the classes in technical terms while using a lot of metaphysical metaphors.
This makes it ideal for promoting it through modern medicine since they both have that in common. People are persuaded that they are both scientifically based and have their application in reliable truth based results. They respect western gurus called physicians, who are unwittingly disciples of one of the wealthiest families in the world. This family established their religion in medical colleges. They mix some truth with lies and the outcome is the love for money and incredible wealth.

Since the West utterly trusts their Gurus of the metaphysical world of medicine and science so called, the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was told by his spirit guide that he should return to America and promote TM in such a manner and with similar scientific, health care terminology.

The scores of Indian gurus who moved to the USA to spread Hinduism were rejected because of our Biblical Christian Baptist influences.
They did not become wealthy gaining followers, so they returned to India. When Maharishi did so, his spirit guide taught him how to become financially successful.
Guess what?
It worked!
The Maharishi's TM became the standard practice that gave the example for Hinduism "Christian" Mysticism all over the christianized world.

The guru started thousands of satellite groups, his own university, was embassador of Hinduism to major celebrities and political leaders. He got a scientific study or two published and persuaded the AMA and all the medical colleges to promote it. Now the medical colleges throughout the West and their outgoing MDs are trained with Hinduism to inoculate their patients against Jesus Christ.
You will have a hard time finding a Dr tell you that is what happened, but that's the magic of this integrative religion. It adapted to the West and persuaded it was a good healthy option.
This is a perfect marriage with their Christless religion of science falsely so called, "health care". Chemicals/ drugs/ pharmakeia are not healing nutrients.
In regards to the practice of SO MUCH of modern medicine that people trust, more than the Almighty Creator of scientific laws and health.


Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Jesus Himself created us and designed us to receive of Him through creation, that which brings lasting health. Yet people are foolishly decided by stupid UN-"scientific" studies that chemicals are the solution, that meditations are the solutions.

God the Holy Spirit gave His Word to think about, to meditate upon!
Satanic demons like the one represented in the work of art above tell us to empty our minds and chant vain repetitions of demonic names.
I identify as the warrior, because I actually am one, holding the sword of the Spirit in hand cleaving usunder through his joints and marrow. I hate the devils of India that have been summoned to the shores of America!
Many of us have loved ones who became victims of the damned demons and I will continue to fight them until the Lord returns and casts them into the pit of Hell!

Back to the adolescent period of my personal experience with Meditation.
As the program progressed, we were groomed to take part in an elite initiation, that promised to make us healthier and better than others.
At the completion of the series, over a period of many weeks, the night had come for the initiation and completion of the Transcendental program.
We were to be given our own special mantra in the back room that had a sign. No entry was allowed. I thought it might be the office where money was kept.
Everything in the school was dead silent. Nobody was speaking ...out loud.
I was led by the hand by one of the teachers, much to my surprise to the door where entry was strictly forbidden. It was a mystery.
What was beyond in this forbidden area off limits to students?
Why did we have to go back here to receive the special word that we were told to never tell anyone, not even our parents?

As I entered, it was dark, expecting the teacher to turn on the light. It was lit only by candles placed close to objects upon the counters surrounding the room. My eyes needed time to adjust to the darkness. Smoke of Incense streamed up from the objects displayed eerily upon their platforms.
Around the dark chamber were statues that I did not want to look directly upon. I could not believe my eyes as I wondered why the teacher was teaching a science and this seemed so surreal.
I was led by the hand to one of the objects and told to kneel down on my knees before it for a secret ceremony.
It was a terrifying image with grotesque features like out of an H.P. Lovecraft story.
My teacher led me to begin the meditation. She told me that secret word to speak out loud over and over again for several minutes. Then I was to continue the word silently, bowing before the monstrous idol.
After the religious ceremony, I was released to return home.
That shook me so badly that I never returned. Nor could I speak if this to my parents.

The twisted horror of that encounter compelled me to look up the word at a later date. My research resulted in finding a record of the words used as mantras. Surprisingly, it was from Sanskrit, a dead written language of the Hindu religion, their bibles.

I discovered the word that I was given to chant repeatedly was the name of a demon!
I was taught how to summon a demon to become possessed and controlled.

This is Hinduism rebranded for westerners, called "christian" mysticism.
From what it sounds like what you found with them is not Christian at all it seems more like hindu or something like that.
A christian mystic meditates on his word and meditates in their prayer life seeking the divine influence and spiritual depth with God seeking to get to know him personally as if meeting him face to face.

What you describe sounds demonic in every sense of the word