Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[GWH]

Applying Romans 1-11 to MFW, we find the following:

48. Regarding Moral volition, R#9 teaches that the purpose of the law is to make souls conscious of sin, and R#10-11 teach how to attain righteousness from God. R#22 urges Christians not to continue sinning, and R#26&27 contrast the sinful nature with the new way of cooperating with the Spirit until Christians attain the likeness of Christ.

49. Regarding Freedom to choose, faith connotes a lack of proof or coercion, thereby making the chooser responsible for resisting God’s kind leading per R#3&4, which onus for evil is sensed by one’s conscience (R#8) or consciousness of sin (R#9). Even the reference to slavery in R#23 speaks of obedience being offered.

50. Regarding Will or volition, it is signified in R#32&38 by the heart, and the sinful will is described as hardened (cf. obstinate in Rom. 10:21). In R#39 Israel’s corporate will to sin is called transgression.

 

[GWH]

Now let us consider the remaining Scriptures cited in the descriptions of the TULIP and MFW interpretations in light of Romans 1-11.

51. T - Mark 7:21-23 lists some evil thoughts in sinful hearts, but it does not teach that evil people cannot repent. Rather, Jesus states this truth in order to prick sinners’ hearts and lead them to repent of ignoring the commands of God in order to preserve the traditions of men (Mark 7:6-13, R#3&4).

1Cor. 2:14 says that those without the Spirit view GW as foolishness, but this does not teach that unspiritual souls cannot repent. Rather, Paul urges the readers to humble themselves and accept the foolishness of God (the crucifixion of Christ per 2:8, cf. R#12-15) as wiser than the wisdom of the world (1Cor. 1:27-31, 3:18-19).

52. U – The only Scripture cited as specifically supporting this point is R#21, but only if universal salvation is also accepted as being taught by the reference to all/many, but Romans 5:17 limits the many to those who receive God’s grace, and Romans 4:16 & 5:1 teach that grace is received through faith, making it the condition for reception (s/e).

53. L – In Matthew 20:28 Jesus said that his life is given as a ransom for many (stated also in Hebrews 9:28), but this does not preclude anyone who has faith being included, and Scriptures such as 1Timothy 2:3-4 indicate God’s desire for all to become “many” (John 3:16, Acts 2:21, 1John 2:2), indicating that although Christ’s death atoned for the sins of all humanity only for those who accept Jesus as Messiah does it result in forgiveness (s/e, R#14&18).

54. I - Phil. 2:13 says that God works in believers to will and act according to His good purpose, but this does not mean that believers do not willingly cooperate (R#23).

55. P – John 10:27-29 states that Jesus gives his sheep eternal life, and no one can snatch them, which is stated by Paul in Romans 8:35-39 as being separated from the love of God in Christ. However, there are numerous Scriptures indicating that a believer may not persevere (including John 8:31, Matt. 10:22& Heb. 10:36), so although God gives endurance per Romans 15:4-5, it too must be received through continued faith (2Cor. 5:7) “from first to last” (Romans 1:17).

 

[GWH]

56. M - Gen. 2:17 begins the biblical revelation of God’s moral nature and requirement and is followed up by Gen. 6:5-6 revealing that God is grieved by sin, which truth Paul noted in Eph. 4:30. A main point of the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7) per Jesus in Matt. 5:20 is that souls should be righteous, and main point of the Sermon on Salvation (Rom. 1-11) per Paul in Rom. 3:21-22 is that righteousness is attained through faith in Jesus as Lord (cf. Acts 16:30-31).

57. F - Deut. 30:19 is one of the clearest statements of the condition of volition in Scripture, and Jesus lamented the sinful misuse of this divine gift in Matt. 23:37. Jesus commanded the correct application of volition in Matt. 7:7 (cf. Heb. 11:6). Paul indicates that God enables sinners to seek salvation in Rom. 2:4, where he says that God’s kindness toward sinners leads them toward repentance. In 1Tim. 2:3-4 Paul taught that God wants all souls to be saved, but he lamented that many resisted God’s will in Acts 28:26-27, like Jesus did in Matt. 13:14-15.

58. W – The short version of Paul’s Sermon on Salvation in Romans is found in Eph. 2:8-10, which states that God’s grace is received through faith, not works, implying that the condition of cooperating (called partnership in Phil. 1:4-5, cf. 2:12-13) with God both by professing Christ at conversion (from first/first day) and by producing the fruit of the Spirit during sanctification (to last/the day of Christ Jesus) is NOT meritorious or a reason to think salvation is earned (Rom. 1:17). However, choosing to disbelieve God or resist His kindness does manifest spiritual separation from His blessings and warrant eventual experiencing of divine wrath per Rom. 2:4-6 (cf. Matt. 23:37).

 

[GWH]

The concerns of those who accept TULIP—to affirm the sovereignty of God and the inability of souls to earn salvation—are valid, but the solutions are problematic, because they deny or ignore Scripture teaching the love of God for all sinners and the moral accountability of sinners for rejecting the love of God, thereby effectively perverting the Gospel (Gal. 5:6) and impugning God’s justness. The apparent reasons for these errors are threefold: 1. Unconcern for harmonizing all of Scripture, such as those teaching the possibility of apostasy, 2. Viewing faith as a meritorious work rather than as the non-meritorious condition of cooperating with God’s grace, and 3. Portraying God as unjust by showing favoritism toward the elect. Once these errors are cured by including Scripture supporting MFW, doctrinal harmony is enhanced.

This study will conclude with a few examples of how synthetic or “both-and” thinking may serve as a cure for divisive thinking and disharmony. An example of an apparent discrepancy was cited in R#28, in which Rom. 8:38-39 and Heb. 10:26-36 seem contradictory. However, harmonization can be achieved easily by understanding “anything else” in the first passage as referring to powers other than the saint’s own will "deliberately" sinning in the second passage.

Similarly, the necessity of God’s mercy cited in R#31 does not obviate or nullify the need for a soul’s willing cooperation that is indicated in Col. 2:6-7, because there is no qualitative difference between (non-meritorious) faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (Eph. 2:8-10, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes.

The final example involves two passages penned by John. In John 10:27-29 Jesus said that no one can snatch his sheep out of the Father’s hand, and 1John 2:24-25 indicates that his sheep will remain in the Father’s hand if what they believed at the beginning remains in them.

The apparent discrepancy between the passages in these examples illustrates the truth that Scripture is not written in a systematic way that teaches everything about a doctrine in one place, so there is a need to connect dots or interpret one Scripture with the rest of Scripture, which is what is meant by the term "harmonization". In this way (cf. Eph. 4:12-15) it can be hoped that spiritual unity among Christians in answer to the prayer of Jesus (in John 17:20-21) will also be encouraged.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The apparent discrepancy between the passages in these examples illustrates the truth that Scripture is not written in a systematic way that teaches everything about a doctrine in one place

Precious, agree; which is why we need a systematic way to learn, with Bible study Rules!

Amen.

 

[GWH]

Precious, agree; which is why we need a systematic way to learn, with Bible study Rules!

Amen.

Yes, glad we agree. In your link I liked you interpreting 1Cor. 2:13 as advocating comparing Scripture with Scripture;
I had not thought of it in that way before. Thanks.

 

[GWH]

Here is an example of analyzing TULIP in light of what has been learned in R#1-58 and other Scriptures:

A. “Man is doubly incapable of believing in Jesus and the Gospel.” This statement is patently false, because the entire Bible is the story of those who had saving faith, which Hebrews 11 summarizes, and most of Romans (R#1-20) is a sermon explaining the necessity of faith in Christ. A true statement might be “Many souls have not believed GW” (R#34-40).

B. “Because of the disobedience (sin) of Adam and Eve, all humans are born with an inherited sin nature, and are bent on sinning instead of following God. Having a saving faith is against their very nature!” This statement has elements of truth but requires tweaking. Human nature was created good but not perfect, and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected during his earthly life (Hebrews 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s goal (Phil. 3:12-15). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19 = R#2-21).

C. “All unsaved humans are captive prisoners of Satan, and are bent on doing whatever he wants them to do. Jesus came to set the captives of Satan free.” This statement is almost true, but it fails to notice that Paul indicated slavery is willing (R#23) and that children raised by Christian parents learn to love God from infancy (2Tim. 2:15-17).

 

[GWH]

[From Section V in Lesson 2 on our website <truthseekersfellowship.com> ]
Scripture regarding the doctrine of election and predestination is not sufficiently clear to preclude confusion and debate. Thus, it is discussed in Lesson 10 on Controversial Issues with a systematic study of Romans 1-11. However, it is also needful to say a few words about the topic in this discussion of salvation. The need is to harmonize the Scriptures sounding as though God determines who will be elect with Scriptures indicating that souls have moral free will, but in order to do this it is first necessary to harmonize Scriptures stressing the sovereignty of God with those focusing on His love for humanity.

Scriptures stressing sovereignty may be represented by the following:

1. Matt 11:27, “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

2. Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’”

God’s Word stressing love for humanity may be represented by the following two of the seven pearls previously cited:

3. JN 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

4. 1TM 2:3b-4, “God our Savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

These two themes can be harmonized and unified as follows:

Jesus does not say in #1 that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell, and Paul does say in #4 that God wants all to be saved, so the Son chooses to reveal the Father to all who choose to seek Him per MT 7:7.

Although #2 by itself may be understood as indicating God withholds His Word regarding the kingdom of God from those He hates, both Jesus and Paul quote Isaiah 9:6 (in MT 13:14-15 & ACTS 28:26-27) in a way that puts the responsibility for not receiving God’s Word (GW) on those whose hearts are hardened or not open to it (in agreement with #3).

 

[GWH]

Having completed the study of election except for loose ends,
I would like us next to conduct a systematic Bible study regarding the topic of prayer.

I know of no better place to begin than by discussing what Jesus taught about prayer in Matthew 6:9-13.

Would someone like to start this?

Thanks!

 

[PaulThomson]

33. Romans 9:18 says that God “hardens whom He wants to harden”, which raises the question asked in v.19, “Why does God blame sinners who cannot resist His will?” Paul’s response (Rom. 9:20-21) is that God has the might and thus the right to determine what is right. Then he speculates (“What if”) that God might have patiently endured evildoers (#20) as evidence of His glory toward recipients of His mercy (Rom. 9:22-23).

34. In Romans 9:24-33 and 10:1-4 Paul notes that God elected to choose Gentiles with saving faith instead of Israelites who sought salvation by works and stumbled over the Gospel of Christ, even though “everyone who believes” receives righteousness or s/e.

s/e ?
Maybe you could drop the abbreviations for the sake of clear communication.

 

[GWH]

s/e ?
Maybe you could drop the abbreviations for the sake of clear communication.

Maybe you could start the study from the beginning where s/e is identified as meaning salvation/election,
but that has concluded, so before catching up on that reading how about translating Matthew 6:9-13 to begin the study of prayer?

Thanks.

 

[GWH]

Actually, I have already studied the TOJ regarding how to pray in Matthew 6:9-13
(cf. Lesson 3 of our website: <truthseekersfellowship.com> ), so because my pump is primed
I will go ahead and start the discussion/study regarding the doctrine of prayer (DOP).

TOJ #32: Pray to God as heavenly Father. [Matt. 6:9a//Luke 11:2a]. I find six separate teachings in Jesus’ Sample Prayer.

First, addressing God as our heavenly Father connotes that we who pray are children of God,
reborn of the Spirit (John 3:3-8) through union by Faith with God’s Son (Rom. 8:9-17, 1John 5:1-6).

James 2:19 says demons or ungodly souls may believe in God’s existence,
so I suppose they might address God in order to curse Him (Job 2:9). {John 17:1}

Comments?

 

[GWH]

TOJ #33: Reverence the Creator. [Matt. 6:9b//Luke 11:2b] God’s name refers to His being or essence rather than to a particular word, whether Yahweh, Jehovah or Allah. However, among the names for the personifications of God, Paul believes Jesus should be given preeminence as Lord (Phil. 2:5-11; TOJ #196).

 

[GWH]

TOJ #34: Desire God’s will to be done. [Matt. 6:10//Luke 11:2 c] This is a significant restatement of TOJ #2. “On earth” begins with the prayer’s own life.

Jesus exemplified this teaching when He prayed in Gethsemane before His crucifixion {Matt. 26:39-42//Mark 14:36}.

God is not our genie; we are His ministers, who cooperate with His Holy Spirit (Phil. 2:12-13) in doing His work (Eph. 2:10).
Thus, there is an implicit condition in “whatever you ask for”, i.e., we must ask in accordance with God’s will (TOJ #51).

Jesus prayed for the Kingdom of God (KOG) or God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, referring to His spiritual reign in the hearts of believers, as in Luke 17:20b-21, “The coming of the KOG is not something that can be observed, nor will people say. Here it is, or there it is, because the KOG is in your midst.”

The KOG is manifested in the world salt and light or as love and truth (cf. TOJ #19). Examples of such love are mentioned in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats (Matt. 25:31-46, TOJ #35).

In the writings of Paul, the KOG is called the body (1Cor. 12:13, Eph. 1:23&5:30) or church of Christ (Col. 1:13&18, Eph. 2:22, 3:10 & 5:23), which is comprised of local churches (Acts 9:31, 20:28).

 

[GWH]

TOJ #35: You may request physical as well as spiritual necessities. [Matt. 6:11//Luke 11:3] God is the ultimate source of material blessings (Jam. 1:17), and He is concerned about our complete welfare, wanting everyone to be fed, clothed and sheltered {Matt. 6:32, 25:31-46, TOJ #34} as well as saved.

 

[PaulThomson]

Maybe you could start the study from the beginning where s/e is identified as meaning salvation/election,
but that has concluded, so before catching up on that reading how about translating Matthew 6:9-13 to begin the study of prayer?

Thanks.

Which number post does s/e first occur? I don't think it's reasonable to expect a person visiting this thread to read all 32 pages of 632 posts to learn your abbreviation system before they comment on a recent post. If your aim is to have new visitors to the thread engage with your posts, I suggest you speak plainly in each post. "A trumpet playing an uncertain sound" and all that.

Mat 6:9 In this manner therefore (Οὕτως οὖν) pray ( προσεύχεσθε, present middle/passive deponent imperative 3rd person plural) you (ὑμεῖς): Our Father (Πάτερ ἡμῶν) the one in the heavens (ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς), Hallowed be (ἁγιασθήτω, aorist passive imperative 3rd person singular) the name of you (τὸ ὄνομά σου).
Mat 6:10 Let it come (ἐλθέτω, 2nd aorist active imperative 3rd person singular) the kingdom of you. (ἡ βασιλεία σου) Let it happen/be done (γενηθήτω, aorist middle/passive deponent imperative 3rd person singular) the will of you (τὸ θέλημά σου) as in heaven (ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ) also from-upon the earth (καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς)
Mat 6:11 The bread of us (Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν) the daily (τὸν ἐπιούσιον) give (δὸς, 2nd aorist active imperative 2nd person singular)) to us (ἡμῖν) today (σήμερον·)
Mat 6:12 And forgive (καὶ ἄφες, second aorist active imperative 2nd person singular) to us (ἡμῖν) the debts (τὰ ὀφειλήματα) of us (ἡμῶν), in the way that (ὡς) also (καὶ ) we (ἡμεῖς) are forgiving (ἀφίεμεν, present active indicative) the debtors (τοῖς ὀφειλέταις) of us (ἡμῶν).
Mat 6:13 And not (καὶ μὴ) lead ( εἰσενέγκῃς, aorist active subjunctive 2nd person singular) us (ἡμᾶς) into temptation (εἰς πειρασμόν), but (ἀλλὰ) deliver (ῥῦσαι, aorist middle deponent imperative) us (ἡμᾶς) from the evil (ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ): because (ὅτι) of you (σοῦ) is (ἐστιν) the kingdom (ἡ βασιλεία ), and (καὶ) the power (ἡ δύναμις), and the glory (καὶ ἡ δόξα), into the ages (εἰς τοῦς αἰῶνας). Amen (ἀμήν).

My paraphrase of the Greek text.

9 Therefore, keep on praying in this manner:
Our Father in heaven, let Your name be hallowed right now. 10 Let Your kingdom be manifest right now. Let Your will , in the same way it is right now done in heaven, be done right now upon the earth. 11 Give us sometime today, our food for this day. 12 And forgive right now to us our debts in the same way as we are forgiving (or we keep on forgiving) our debtors. 13 And do not lead us right now into hard testing, but if and when hard testing comes to us, deliver us from the evil one who is bringing it (or, deliver us from the evil that comes our way}, because YOURS is the kingdom and the power and the glory into the ages. Amen.

As I understand it, the aorist imperative expects an instant response to the command. The present imperative expects a present or future state to be continued. The future imperative expects a single decisive action to be taken in the future.
So, the present imperatives when Jesus introduces this prayer indicates that Jesus expects those praying like this, to continue doing so.

And the aorist imperatives in His prayer indicate that He wants His disciples to expect immediate responses from God. So, rather that this prayer being a formula that Jesus wants to be repeated at various times during ones day, it is rather a description of the general heart attitude toward God that a disciple should have continuously - "Keep on praying like this..."

1. "Our Father" places me on the same status before God as every other disciple, and places every other disciple at the same level as me. I must value all disciples equally with myself., i.e. love others as much as I love myself. It identifies and acknowledges God as the source of our being and the source of all things necessary sustain our existence.

2. Your name be hallowed right now" indicates that our heart attitude should be that this moment my words and deeds should keep holy God's name, which I am claiming is my Father's name.

3. "Let Your kingdom be manifest right now. Let Your will, in the same way it is right now done in heaven, be done right now upon the earth. " means we want God's rule to be evident in this present moment, by God manifesting His love through me and the church.

4. "11 Give us sometime today, our food for this day." The use of the word "today" with the aorist imperative broadens the timeframe of the commanded action to being a decisive action that will occur some time within this 24 hour day, but not necessarily immediately. This clause also assures us that God wants to supply our physical and spiritual needs for today, since He has commanded us to pray for them. Why would he command us to pray for something that is not His will?

5. "And forgive right now to us our debts in the same way as we are forgiving (or we keep on forgiving) our debtors. " This section presupposes that we are quickly forgiving those who offend us. The preacher last week spoke on unity in the church, and one thing jhe advocated was to Confess our fault to those we have offended, to say sorry and to ask them for forgiveness. I do not see anything in the Bible that says we should ask someone to forgive us. In fact, if someone asked me to forgive them, my response should be,
"I forgave you immediately after you offended me." Or an hour, or a day or a week or a month later. I should not be harbouring unforgivingness until the offender asks me to forgive them. That's not what Jesus did. We can expect God to forgive us instantly, when we forgive instantly. If I hold a grudge I will not be able confidently to trust that God has already forgiven me my offences against Him.

6. "And do not lead us right now into hard testing, but if and when hard testing comes to us, deliver us from the evil one who is bringing it (or, deliver us from the evil that came our way}" We should be wary of traps laid by the devil and others to stumble us out of holiness, so that the instant we suspect a trap ahead, our attitude is one of asking God to lead us in such a way that we do not fall into the anticipated snare, but we successfully evade it.

7. "because YOURS is the kingdom and the power and the glory into the ages. Amen." The reason we seek to avoid the devils' snares is because the kingdom we desire is God's kingdom. And the reason we and expect to receive this menu of prayed for provisions God has the power to provide them. And the reason we surrender walking our own path in order to walk with God on His path is because we want the glory to go to Him, not to us.

 

[GWH]

Which number post does s/e first occur? I don't think it's reasonable to expect a person visiting this thread to read all 32 pages of 632 posts to learn your abbreviation system before they comment on a recent post. If your aim is to have new visitors to the thread engage with your posts, I suggest you speak plainly in each post. "A trumpet playing an uncertain sound" and all that.

Mat 6:9 In this manner therefore (Οὕτως οὖν) pray ( προσεύχεσθε, present middle/passive deponent imperative 3rd person plural) you (ὑμεῖς): Our Father (Πάτερ ἡμῶν) the one in the heavens (ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς), Hallowed be (ἁγιασθήτω, aorist passive imperative 3rd person singular) the name of you (τὸ ὄνομά σου).
Mat 6:10 Let it come (ἐλθέτω, 2nd aorist active imperative 3rd person singular) the kingdom of you. (ἡ βασιλεία σου) Let it happen/be done (γενηθήτω, aorist middle/passive deponent imperative 3rd person singular) the will of you (τὸ θέλημά σου) as in heaven (ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ) also from-upon the earth (καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς)
Mat 6:11 The bread of us (Τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν) the daily (τὸν ἐπιούσιον) give (δὸς, 2nd aorist active imperative 2nd person singular)) to us (ἡμῖν) today (σήμερον·)
Mat 6:12 And forgive (καὶ ἄφες, second aorist active imperative 2nd person singular) to us (ἡμῖν) the debts (τὰ ὀφειλήματα) of us (ἡμῶν), in the way that (ὡς) also (καὶ ) we (ἡμεῖς) are forgiving (ἀφίεμεν, present active indicative) the debtors (τοῖς ὀφειλέταις) of us (ἡμῶν).
Mat 6:13 And not (καὶ μὴ) lead ( εἰσενέγκῃς, aorist active subjunctive 2nd person singular) us (ἡμᾶς) into temptation (εἰς πειρασμόν), but (ἀλλὰ) deliver (ῥῦσαι, aorist middle deponent imperative) us (ἡμᾶς) from the evil (ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ): because (ὅτι) of you (σοῦ) is (ἐστιν) the kingdom (ἡ βασιλεία ), and (καὶ) the power (ἡ δύναμις), and the glory (καὶ ἡ δόξα), into the ages (εἰς τοῦς αἰῶνας). Amen (ἀμήν).

My paraphrase of the Greek text.

9 Therefore, keep on praying in this manner:
Our Father in heaven, let Your name be hallowed right now. 10 Let Your kingdom be manifest right now. Let Your will , in the same way it is right now done in heaven, be done right now upon the earth. 11 Give us sometime today, our food for this day. 12 And forgive right now to us our debts in the same way as we are forgiving (or we keep on forgiving) our debtors. 13 And do not lead us right now into hard testing, but if and when hard testing comes to us, deliver us from the evil one who is bringing it (or, deliver us from the evil that comes our way}, because YOURS is the kingdom and the power and the glory into the ages. Amen.

As I understand it, the aorist imperative expects an instant response to the command. The present imperative expects a present or future state to be continued. The future imperative expects a single decisive action to be taken in the future.
So, the present imperatives when Jesus introduces this prayer indicates that Jesus expects those praying like this, to continue doing so.

And the aorist imperatives in His prayer indicate that He wants His disciples to expect immediate responses from God. So, rather that this prayer being a formula that Jesus wants to be repeated at various times during ones day, it is rather a description of the general heart attitude toward God that a disciple should have continuously - "Keep on praying like this..."

1. "Our Father" places me on the same status before God as every other disciple, and places every other disciple at the same level as me. I must value all disciples equally with myself., i.e. love others as much as I love myself. It identifies and acknowledges God as the source of our being and the source of all things necessary sustain our existence.

2. Your name be hallowed right now" indicates that our heart attitude should be that this moment my words and deeds should keep holy God's name, which I am claiming is my Father's name.

3. "Let Your kingdom be manifest right now. Let Your will, in the same way it is right now done in heaven, be done right now upon the earth. " means we want God's rule to be evident in this present moment, by God manifesting His love through me and the church.

4. "11 Give us sometime today, our food for this day." The use of the word "today" with the aorist imperative broadens the timeframe of the commanded action to being a decisive action that will occur some time within this 24 hour day, but not necessarily immediately. This clause also assures us that God wants to supply our physical and spiritual needs for today, since He has commanded us to pray for them. Why would he command us to pray for something that is not His will?

5. "And forgive right now to us our debts in the same way as we are forgiving (or we keep on forgiving) our debtors. " This section presupposes that we are quickly forgiving those who offend us. The preacher last week spoke on unity in the church, and one thing jhe advocated was to Confess our fault to those we have offended, to say sorry and to ask them for forgiveness. I do not see anything in the Bible that says we should ask someone to forgive us. In fact, if someone asked me to forgive them, my response should be,
"I forgave you immediately after you offended me." Or an hour, or a day or a week or a month later. I should not be harbouring unforgivingness until the offender asks me to forgive them. That's not what Jesus did. We can expect God to forgive us instantly, when we forgive instantly. If I hold a grudge I will not be able confidently to trust that God has already forgiven me my offences against Him.

6. "And do not lead us right now into hard testing, but if and when hard testing comes to us, deliver us from the evil one who is bringing it (or, deliver us from the evil that came our way}" We should be wary of traps laid by the devil and others to stumble us out of holiness, so that the instant we suspect a trap ahead, our attitude is one of asking God to lead us in such a way that we do not fall into the anticipated snare, but we successfully evade it.

7. "because YOURS is the kingdom and the power and the glory into the ages. Amen." The reason we seek to avoid the devils' snares is because the kingdom we desire is God's kingdom. And the reason we and expect to receive this menu of prayed for provisions God has the power to provide them. And the reason we surrender walking our own path in order to walk with God on His path is because we want the glory to go to Him, not to us.

#596 is the first use of s/e. The complete results of my study of Romans 1-11 are posted in Lesson 10 (Controversial Issues) of our
website <truthseekersfellowship.com> I trust you realize that the reason I was prompted to study Romans 1-11 was because you and studier thought that my attempts to harmonize TULIP with MFW Scripture was not working well--and I agreed.

Thanks for your translation, which seems to agree with the NIV, except for not conveying the "right now" emphasis.
Regarding "keep on praying", given that Jesus is teaching how to pray, would you agree that it might mean "NOW that you have learned my teaching, keep on praying..."?

Re "Our" in #1. I like the way you relate it to loving others. Probably we could relate/elaborate #2 "hallowed" and #3 "kingdom" in a comparable way?

Re "give us" in #4, does that connote welfare or workfare? I tend to have a poetic ear, so I like the way in English that give is followed by forgive in #5, and so I ask the same question: Does "forgive" connote welfare (disability) or workfare (cooperation)?

And while we are on that train of question, how does it apply to "deliver" in #6?

Finally, how does #7 and indeed the whole prayer relate to the way folks pray today?
Are they following the model/sample taught by Jesus?

 

[GWH]

TOJ #36: Admit your faults as you forgive others theirs. [Matt. 6:12//Luke 11:4a] The second part of this teaching echoes #14. Genuine saving Faith motivates loving forgiveness. Confession is the key to having a right relationship with God (1John 1:9), which is manifested by mercy (TOJ #148). {Mark 11:25, Matt. 18:15-17}.

 

[GWH]

TOJ #37: Pray for power to resist temptations. [Matt. 6:13//Luke 11:4b]

This also was a major theme of Paul’s instruction about prayer (Eph. 1:17-19, Phil. 1:9-11, Col. 1:10-12) as well as of James’ (Jam. 4:2, 1:5,12-13).

Jesus reiterated this teaching on the Mount of Olives before He was betrayed. {Matt. 27:41//Mark 14:38//Luke 22:40&46}

We know that God will always grant this prayer request (1Cor. 10:13). This prayer seems equivalent to protection from the evil one {John 17:15}.