Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[sawdust]

We simply believe something. If I say God is good, you either believe the statement or not. You don't choose to believe or not believe by an act of volition. The belief is present or it isn't.
The same thing is true when the gospel is shared. We hear it and either believe or do not believe. We don't say to ourselves...should I believe or not? What choice should I make? I choose...
We are commanded to believe, but no where does scripture say we are to choose to believe. Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.

Faith comes by the word of God. If volition has no place in our lives for deciding what we will believe or not, why bother with it?

You said earlier that you don't see our believing and faith as the same thing yet, here you are again, speaking as if they are the same thing.

To be honest, I find your words inconsistent and therefore difficult to find follow the logic.

Whether one is aware they are making a choice or not is irrelevant. The fact remains there are two options, two paths one can take when presented with the truth and that requires a choice and we make choices with our will.

I think we have exhausted our discussion, don't you?

peace to you brother.

 

[Rufus]

I've no idea what you're off to and not going to spend time trying to figure it out.

I'm also not going to take up any lengthy discussions unless you'll explain Scripture in detail so we can analyze how and why you think it means something.

It's simple really. Life precedes faith in the same way sanctification by the Spirit precedes precedes faith (2Thes 2:13) and precedes obedience to Christ (1Pet 1:2).

Re Christ's discourse with Nicodemus, that passage really comes alive once you understand that the "kingdom" is being personified by Jesus. He is the Kingdom! But Nicodemus has no clue at that point. He needed spiritual LIFE -- he needed to be born from above, which according to Jesus doesn't happen by the will of man. When Jesus told this Pharisee that he cannot see (understand) the kingdom of God he was really telling Nicodemus he can't understand who the Messiah is -- who Israel's King is unless he's born again. It's the new birth that dispels the darkness so that one that can comprehend the Light.

The Logos is eminently logical...unlike the sons of men, especially advocates of heresies.

 

[Rufus]

Faith comes by the word of God. If volition has no place in our lives for deciding what we will believe or not, why bother with it?

You said earlier that you don't see our believing and faith as the same thing yet, here you are again, speaking as if they are the same thing.

To be honest, I find your words inconsistent and therefore difficult to find follow the logic.

Whether one is aware they are making a choice or not is irrelevant. The fact remains there are two options, two paths one can take when presented with the truth and that requires a choice and we make choices with our will.

I think we have exhausted our discussion, don't you?

peace to you brother.

It also comes BY GRACE (Act 15:9; 18:27; Rom 12:3; 1Tim 1:14; Eph 2:8-10). Half truths are never substitutes for the whole truth and nothing but the truth!

Re your question about volition: It is of great value to the living! Not so much, though, to the dead.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

• Some of Jesus' own people did receive Him.
• "receive" is the non-intensified version of the word and my and @cv5 posts defining it are here. Some of Jesus' people did receive Him. This is also an active verb so some of Jesus' people did actively receive Him, take Him, even "choose" Him as the supplied Lexical definitions show, even though "choose" is not the primary meaning.
• This active "receive/take" is used in parallel with the also active verb "believe" so these two verbs are explaining one another, and John is thereby making clear that to actively receive is to actively believe.
• John interesting tells us that Jesus gave these active receivers/believers "the right - the authority - to become God's children. I won't take the time to define "children" here, but it has some very interesting meanings. This right/authority to become something needs to be carried into the next verse.

those who received (lambanō ) ... as explained in the many, many pages in this thread, as well as above those who actively lay hold of Him.

He gave = (didōmi ) ... it is God Who gives the right to become children of God ... to those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ.

the right = (exousia ) ... (from 1537 /ek, "out from," which intensifies 1510 /eimí, "to be, being as a right or privilege") – authority, conferred power; delegated empowerment ("authorization") - HELPS Word-studies. The one who receives the Lord Jesus Christ is empowered ... God provides all that is necessary ...

to become = (ginomai ) ... Christ is the Son of God ... those who receive the Lord Jesus Christ are empowered to become sons of God ... become something they were not before they received the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ clarified that it is through faith in Him that believers become children of God ... as opposed to being of the lineage of Abraham.

sons of God = (teknon ) ... sons of God ... not servants, but a Father/child relationship ... and the next verse tells us the one who actively lays hold on the Lord Jesus Christ ... those who become sons of God ... are sons of God by birth

I would appreciate some expansion on these terms (didōmi , exousia , ginomai , teknon ) no rush ...
.

 

[sawdust]

I never once stated what I just bolded above. Pay attention, please. I'll say this one more time:

1. You obviously do not believe that God's grace is efficacious.
2. You do believe that God provides only mere opportunities for salvation and not salvation itself.
3. You believe that man must choose to take advantage of those opportunities in order to become saved.
4. Therefore, the salvation buck stops with man's choices.
5. So, when a man believes, this must mean that his volition was the efficacious cause of his own salvation.

If not number 5, then what precisely is the efficacious cause to man's faith and repentance?

It think it is you who needs to read again. I said "it seems like". I never declared you stated what you bolded.

1. I do believe God's grace saves us and I have said it many, many times. Eph.2:8
2. I believe God presents us with truth to which we must respond as that is what He has called us to do Jn.6:29 and He supplies the grace needed so we can respond, in spite of the sin nature that would inhibit a true response, from our soul.
3. I believe there are only two types of men in the world, believers and unbelievers. He isn't choosing to take advantage of anything. He either believes or doesn't believe the truth when shown. The choice is there before him whether he acknowledges it or not.
4. The buck stops with God's promise. He promised to Himself before time began He would endow man with eternal life. Titus 1:2 He conditioned it upon man believing His word. Jn.3:16 It is God's decision to do things that way, man's will has nothing to do with it.
5. A man's will reveals who he is, a lover of righteousness or a lover of darkness. Jn.3:20-21 and Jn.6:45 God's word determines his outcome, life or death.

Time for you to pay attention and try understanding correctly what I'm saying. Whether you still disagree at the end, that's your free will activity.

 

[Magenta]

It think it is you who needs to read again. I said "it seems like". I never declared you stated what you bolded.

1. I do believe God's grace saves us and I have said it many, many times. Eph.2:8
2. I believe God presents us with truth to which we must respond as that is what He has called us to do Jn.6:29 and He supplies the grace needed so we can respond, in spite of the sin nature that would inhibit a true response, from our soul.
3. I believe there are only two types of men in the world, believers and unbelievers. He isn't choosing to take advantage of anything. He either believes or doesn't believe the truth when shown. The choice is there before him whether he acknowledges it or not.
4. The buck stops with God's promise. He promised to Himself before time began He would endow man with eternal life. Titus 1:2 He conditioned it upon man believing His word. Jn.3:16 It is God's decision to do things that way, man's will has nothing to do with it.
5. A man's will reveals who he is, a lover of righteousness or a lover of darkness. Jn.3:20-21 and Jn.6:45 God's word determines his outcome, life or death.

Time for you to pay attention and try understanding correctly what I'm saying. Whether you still disagree at the end, that's your free will activity.

It seems so silly to use the term free will in any other capacity while discussing whether the will of man as is before God's grace as you called it makes it possible for him to choose rightly. That people mix these terms in to what is truly germane simply confuses the matter. But it should go without saying that free will is nowhere in the Bible anyways. People conflate the ability to make choices with having a will that is free to choose God but again, silliness abounds. The colour of socks one chooses to wear has zero to do with the eternal fate of one's soul. It would be nice if people started acknowledging such. Alas, I do not see it on the horizon. Don't mind me. It's just a lament.

 

[sawdust]

It seems so silly to use the term free will in any other capacity while discussing whether the will of man as is before God's grace as you called it makes it possible for him to choose rightly. That people mix these terms in to what is truly germane simply confuses the matter. But it should go without saying that free will is nowhere in the Bible anyways. People conflate the ability to make choices with having a will that is free to choose God but again, silliness abounds. The colour of socks one chooses to wear has zero to do with the eternal fate of one's soul. It would be nice if people started acknowledging such. Alas, I do not see it on the horizon. Don't mind me. It's just a lament.

You are not reading what I said correctly. At no time have I said God's grace makes it possible for a man to choose rightly. What I have said is God's grace hinders the sin nature so a man can make a choice freely from his soul rather than being bound to a decision based on his flesh. If it were not so, we could only make a decision that is anti-God because the flesh is against the Spirit. Gal.5:17

This whole "no free will but can make choices" is pure lunacy. From where do you think you make decisions if not your will?

And once again, having a free will does not guarantee one will believe the truth even after we are saved.

We agree on one thing, silliness does abound and a lot of it because statements like "The colour of socks one chooses to wear has zero to do with the eternal fate of one's soul." has absolutely nothing to do with what I have been talking about.

It would be nice if people stopped to read what is written with some effort to understand what is said instead of making inane comments.

Don't worry, I won't mind you as I normally have you on ignore. Not because I'm not interested in what you have to say, but because your pictures, while very pretty, greatly slow down my pages from loading. My time is short.

grace and peace.

 

[Magenta]

You are not reading what I said correctly. At no time have I said God's grace makes it possible for a man to choose rightly. What I have said is God's grace hinders the sin nature so a man can make a choice freely from his soul rather than being bound to a decision based on his flesh.

Wow. Who knew that God making it possible was not God making it possible. No worries.