Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Rufus]

Scripture is clear about that also but they deny it.

It's all a part of FWers' psyche that drives them to be as God. But their hearts are so utterly self-deceived, they cannot see (understand) what they're doing. They are totally oblivious to their own self-deception. How can the blind examine and see clearly into their own hearts?

 

[GWH]

Answer my question: What purpose does Deut 29:4 serve if minds with no understanding and eyes that are blind and ears that are deaf can function just as well as if the mind did understand, and eyes do see and ears can hear? What you're trying to do is artificially mitigate or even obliterate the obvious tension between v. 4 & 9.

What purpose does playing ping-pong serve?
I await a proposal to have a substantive study of another passage of Scripture.

 

[Magenta]

We understand that He has willingly provided His volitional creature - man - to choose to receive or to reject His gracious will for our salvation. And He does what He pleases with both receivers and rejecters.

Some of you who promote free will assert that God doing what He pleases amounts to Him being an unjust tyrannical monster and being unfair, among other bordering on blasphemous assertions that are made. How maligning the character of God helps their case I have not quite figured out yet.

 

[Rufus]

We understand that He has willingly provided His volitional creature - man - to choose to receive or to reject His gracious will for our salvation. And He does what He pleases with both receivers and rejecters.

But this doesn't change the fact that God's will is not contingent on man's. Plus I have given plenty of examples from scripture wherein God has often "forced" his will upon his moral creatures -- in spite of them being "volitional creatures".

You also fail to understand the uselessness of volition in HELPLESS creatures. Did the half-dead crime victim in the Parable of the Good Samaritan exercise his "freewill" before he was RESCUED by the Samaritan?

 

[GWH]

Some of you who promote free will assert that God doing what He pleases amounts to Him being an unjust tyrannical monster and being unfair, among other bordering on blasphemous assertions that are made.

Only if what supposedly pleases Him contradicts what God clearly teaches pleases Him,
such as "Love your enemies".

 

[Magenta]

Colossians 2 verses 13-14 ~ When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

 

[studier]

pejorative + ad hominem + appeal to ignorance + begging the question + straw man +... and its's still early in this new day with the sun and plants and ....

The film clips are fun and interesting though. Might be time better spent tuning in to Charlie or Groucho unless @GWH is able to get some substantive Scripture discussion underway.

 

[Rufus]

What purpose does playing ping-pong serve?
I await a proposal to have a substantive study of another passage of Scripture.

So, you just glibly dismiss a passage by characterizing it as an "anomaly" (i.e. "not much to see here, folks") and cannot answer my question as to the purpose behind the text. Your will is clearly in bondage to the darkness of your heart. But fear not...I will shortly demolish your foolish take on Jer 17:9 by appealing basically to Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it to be).

 

[Cameron143]

Another bold statement. I'm certain you can't back this one up.

Receipt of some grace (theologically called "common grace" by some) is given to all upon the condition we're alive to receive it and partake of it - even choose to partake of it (like the sun and the plants you've mentioned).

You're making these statements. Let's see you back them up with Scripture. I just asked you whether or not you see the volition of men involved in actively receiving vs. rejecting God's grace for example.

The sun is the source of the earth's energy. Plants convert that energy into usable energy for animals and humans. Without the sun, all life on earth ends. God created the sun and upholds it by the word of His power...Hebrews 1:3. Your continued existence depends on God's grace. Likewise, Jesus upholds all Christians...John 15:5. Your whole existence is due to the grace of God. You receive benefit on a continuous basis due to the activity of God. You do nothing to receive this blessing. It is simply received by you every time you eat, drink, or breathe.
Man can exercise volition in that he can make choices, but his choices can only reflect his nature.

 

[GWH]

Colossians 2 verses 13-14 ~ When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!

That is MUCH better! Thanks! Now if only "us" meant potentially all sinners IYO.

 

[Rufus]

LOL, everyone received the sunshine this morning, saint and sinner alike.

Not everyone! There ain't no sun shinin' where I live. Grey, bleak and gloomy.

 

[Rufus]

The sun is the source of the earth's energy. Plants convert that energy into usable energy for animals and humans. Without the sun, all life on earth ends. God created the sun and upholds it by the word of His power...Hebrews 1:3. Your continued existence depends on God's grace. Likewise, Jesus upholds all Christians...John 15:5. Your whole existence is due to the grace of God. You receive benefit on a continuous basis due to the activity of God. You do nothing to receive this blessing. It is simply received by you every time you eat, drink, or breathe.
Man can exercise volition in that he can make choices, but his choices can only reflect his nature.

AMEN to that, brother! Preach it! Teach it! Live it!

Ladies and Gents, this is a man who has a great handle on God's grace!

 

[Cameron143]

Another bold statement. I'm certain you can't back this one up.

Receipt of some grace (theologically called "common grace" by some) is given to all upon the condition we're alive to receive it and partake of it - even choose to partake of it (like the sun and the plants you've mentioned).

You're making these statements. Let's see you back them up with Scripture. I just asked you whether or not you see the volition of men involved in actively receiving vs. rejecting God's grace for example.

Also, God's grace isn't dependent on our existence. It was present before we got here and will be here when we leave. Otherwise, how could others throughout history have received the grace?

 

[Rufus]

We understand that He has willingly provided His volitional creature - man - to choose to receive or to reject His gracious will for our salvation. And He does what He pleases with both receivers and rejecters.

Is that what Eve did after she sinned? She used her God-given volition to save herself -- to "cooperate" with God -- to seize the "opportunity" (that He never offered!) for salvation?

 

[studier]

But this doesn't change the fact that God's will is not contingent on man's.

Since God temporally speaking does respond to man's choosing to receive or to reject Him, then in this sense God's will is contingent and if He wills His response to be contingent, then it is contingent.

This gets back to what some have mentioned already - the existence of "IF" - as in IF one chooses to receive, then.... and IF one chooses to reject, then ....

 

[Rufus]

Some of you who promote free will assert that God doing what He pleases amounts to Him being an unjust tyrannical monster and being unfair, among other bordering on blasphemous assertions that are made. How maligning the character of God helps their case I have not quite figured out yet.

By insulting God and tearing Him down, they artificially build themselves up to become the very one they're insulting and blaspheming.

 

[Rufus]

Since God temporally speaking does respond to man's choosing to receive or to reject Him, then in this sense God's will is contingent and if He wills His response to be contingent, then it is contingent.

This gets back to what some have mentioned already - the existence of "IF" - as in IF one chooses to receive, then.... and IF one chooses to reject, then ....

And what makes you think that the actual "response" itself is not God's will!? You truly have no small blind spot to the sovereignty of God. You "freely" chose to reject several passages that teach that man's ways are NOT in himself!

Did Lydia in Acts finally and freely accept the gospel AFTER God opened her heart to do so?

Did Peter receive and accept who Jesus was AFTER God alone revealed the Son to him?

 

[Cameron143]

I already shared what I DID learn (apostasy = total depravity),
but you did not appreciate/learn it.

Another false equivalency.

 

[Magenta]

By insulting God and tearing Him down, they artificially build themselves up to become the very one they're insulting and blaspheming.

Making the same egregious error as Adam does not look like a good plan to me.

 

[studier]

Plus I have given plenty of examples from scripture wherein God has often "forced" his will upon his moral creatures -- in spite of them being "volitional creatures".

Sorry, I mistakenly hit post early.

Many of your examples are not accepted. But I have no real issue with God seeming to force certain things at certain times or exercising His right to unilaterally choose such as the forefathers or the Seed of Abraham. I also throw in periodically a question about John the Baptist - could he have chosen to be other than who he was foretold to be or to not serve in the capacity he was chosen to serve in?

I just don't take this into your view of election which I see as erroneous.

You also fail to understand the uselessness of volition in HELPLESS creatures.

Your opinion has been noted many times and I and others have responded in detail as to how and why we disagree with you.

Did the half-dead crime victim in the Parable of the Good Samaritan exercise his "freewill" before he was RESCUED by the Samaritan?

He may have. We're not specifically told. This is not the point of the parable which I've recently seen at least one other poster here deal with fairly extensively.

Since we're told he was left "half-dead" he may have accepted the help. At minimum he wasn't a "corpse" being regenerated so he could choose to be helped.