Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

Thank you, LLL It is unfortunate that so many refuse to believe what
Scripture explicitly states and substitute instead things it never does.

Here’s a good example of the dynamic

“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

( this is thier will not Gods Will )


And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

( that term “imagine to do “ ties to thier Will what they are manifesting in thier minds and hearts )


Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth:

( God has now intervened because he had foreknowledge of mankind’s evils ahead so he then stops thier Will from being manifested )


and they left off to build the city.

( notice thier Will isn’t being controlled but instead he’s stopping the outcome ofnthier imaginations by intervention not by talk ng thier eiol from them it’s corrupted but it’s still thiers )


Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:1, 3-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just what they feared happened what they were trying to avoid

“let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. “

“and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”

we can see how Gods Will works but also that man’s Will is rebelling against his it isn’t that anyone’s controlling man apart from thier own selves even God isn’t exercising “ control “ over them he’s simply stopped ng the progress of thier corrupt will by intervention.

man’s will needs to come back in line with Gods Will but as long as we pretend it’s not of ourselves tbat we’re in rebellion and it’s some mystery man controlling our Will we’re never going to get it

Cheers GWH and so hope you mean that for real, sure you can understand my suspicions at this moment but hopefully, they'll soon be gone.

Ah! One doesn't need free will for choice and intention, God knows what's in our hearts and minds, he holds us accountable for them too. Which is absolutely right in my opinion.

Ditto cheers but I do NOT understand your suspicions which is why I asked you to tell me immediately when you think I am bad.

Do you see that your reply didn’t answer my question about justifying hell, so I am asking again?

That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind i mention in my last post. With many creatures, they have great power when they operate collectively, often because of some external stimulus.
There are different ways it's expressed, examples such as the St Vitus Dance episode of the Middle Ages, the many mass hysteria episodes etc, demonstrate a collective will, rather than free will being in control. The Scriptures you mention back that up, it was the power of collective will, not individual free will which was the problem.

“That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind “

i don’t think you would see anything as an example of man having thier own Will. I still don’t even know what you mean by the term “ will “ honestly you seem to bounce around defining that term and say there’s no free Will. I was just showing an example to someone who I know is willing to consider a dynamic like how mans Will is thiers . And how Gods will interacts with and at times intervenes and changes the course of things.

Like the example there you missed the whole point

man’s own will was this for themselves

“They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭

And then this happened

“But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Gods Will was that they stop building the city and so by his divine intervention we see the limitations of man’s “ free Will “

Im not really even sure I disagree with you other than maybe the understanding of the term “ free Will “

the last explaination before this one you gave me I seemed to agree with sort of think we’re looking from different angles and you seem to be put to somehow “ prove “ man has no free Will …..which again I’m still not sure what you mean when you say “ free Will “ as on what the term actually means to you .

Where I began with you trying to get a definition of “ will “ to then see if we could determine whether it’s “ free “ or not sort of I never really understood your answer to that part . I’m clear that you don’t think man has free Will but not clear on what man’s Will is , to you .

“That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind “

i don’t think you would see anything as an example of man having thier own Will. I still don’t even know what you mean by the term “ will “ honestly you seem to bounce around defining that term and say there’s no free Will. I was just showing an example to someone who I know is willing to consider a dynamic like how mans Will is thiers . And how Gods will interacts with and at times intervenes and changes the course of things.

Like the example there you missed the whole point

man’s own will was this for themselves

“They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭

And then this happened

“But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Gods Will was that they stop building the city and so by his divine intervention we see the limitations of man’s “ free Will “

Im not really even sure I disagree with you other than maybe the understanding of the term “ free Will “

the last explaination before this one you gave me I seemed to agree with sort of think we’re looking from different angles and you seem to be put to somehow “ prove “ man has no free Will …..which again I’m still not sure what you mean when you say “ free Will “ as on what the term actually means to you .

Where I began with you trying to get a definition of “ will “ to then see if we could determine whether it’s “ free “ or not sort of I never really understood your answer to that part . I’m clear that you don’t think man has free Will but not clear on what man’s Will is , to you .

Free will = TRUE LIFE
And true life is that which God grants there is no other.

There is your definition.

And there is your problem......stumbling out of the gate.

💯

The words of Christ Jesus cause many problems for determinists.

It's important to say how troubling the behaviour of so many who purport to be Christian, has been on this thread. Many view themselves as morally superior to non-believers, when attempted bullying of me for daring to state a contrary opinion to what amounts to a collective hivemind, has been pretty extraordinary.

Obviously, i'm not the type to be intimidated but do feel concern about the harm which has probably been done to less confident people. Thankfully, there are lots of truly spiritual, lovely people here but there are also many who need to take off their rose coloured glasses.