Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Pilgrimshope]

Thank you, LLL It is unfortunate that so many refuse to believe what
Scripture explicitly states and substitute instead things it never does.

“so many refuse to believe what
Scripture explicitly states and substitute instead things it never does.”

I agree

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Think it’s a shame when people reject what really is there

 

[LifelongLearner]

Here’s a good example of the dynamic

“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

( this is thier will not Gods Will )


And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

( that term “imagine to do “ ties to thier Will what they are manifesting in thier minds and hearts )


Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth:

( God has now intervened because he had foreknowledge of mankind’s evils ahead so he then stops thier Will from being manifested )


and they left off to build the city.

( notice thier Will isn’t being controlled but instead he’s stopping the outcome ofnthier imaginations by intervention not by talk ng thier eiol from them it’s corrupted but it’s still thiers )


Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:1, 3-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just what they feared happened what they were trying to avoid

“let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. “

“and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”

we can see how Gods Will works but also that man’s Will is rebelling against his it isn’t that anyone’s controlling man apart from thier own selves even God isn’t exercising “ control “ over them he’s simply stopped ng the progress of thier corrupt will by intervention.

man’s will needs to come back in line with Gods Will but as long as we pretend it’s not of ourselves tbat we’re in rebellion and it’s some mystery man controlling our Will we’re never going to get it

That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind i mention in my last post. With many creatures, they have great power when they operate collectively, often because of some external stimulus.
There are different ways it's expressed, examples such as the St Vitus Dance episode of the Middle Ages, the many mass hysteria episodes etc, demonstrate a collective will, rather than free will being in control. The Scriptures you mention back that up, it was the power of collective will, not individual free will which was the problem.

 

[GWH]

Cheers GWH and so hope you mean that for real, sure you can understand my suspicions at this moment but hopefully, they'll soon be gone.

Ah! One doesn't need free will for choice and intention, God knows what's in our hearts and minds, he holds us accountable for them too. Which is absolutely right in my opinion.

Ditto cheers but I do NOT understand your suspicions which is why I asked you to tell me immediately when you think I am bad.

Do you see that your reply didn’t answer my question about justifying hell, so I am asking again?

 

[LifelongLearner]

Ditto cheers but I do NOT understand your suspicions which is why I asked you to tell me immediately when you think I am bad.

Do you see that your reply didn’t answer my question about justifying hell, so I am asking again?

i do understand but think you're not understanding that i am one person on my own, who needs to respond to so many comments which are often deliberate trolling. Post a link to my reply, i'd actually like to take a rest from the stupidity soon. Instead of reading through comments themselves, silly people expect me to answer literally the same stupid questions/comments ad nauseam.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind i mention in my last post. With many creatures, they have great power when they operate collectively, often because of some external stimulus.
There are different ways it's expressed, examples such as the St Vitus Dance episode of the Middle Ages, the many mass hysteria episodes etc, demonstrate a collective will, rather than free will being in control. The Scriptures you mention back that up, it was the power of collective will, not individual free will which was the problem.

“That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind “

i don’t think you would see anything as an example of man having thier own Will. I still don’t even know what you mean by the term “ will “ honestly you seem to bounce around defining that term and say there’s no free Will. I was just showing an example to someone who I know is willing to consider a dynamic like how mans Will is thiers . And how Gods will interacts with and at times intervenes and changes the course of things.

Like the example there you missed the whole point

man’s own will was this for themselves

“They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭

And then this happened

“But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Gods Will was that they stop building the city and so by his divine intervention we see the limitations of man’s “ free Will “

Im not really even sure I disagree with you other than maybe the understanding of the term “ free Will “

the last explaination before this one you gave me I seemed to agree with sort of think we’re looking from different angles and you seem to be put to somehow “ prove “ man has no free Will …..which again I’m still not sure what you mean when you say “ free Will “ as on what the term actually means to you .

Where I began with you trying to get a definition of “ will “ to then see if we could determine whether it’s “ free “ or not sort of I never really understood your answer to that part . I’m clear that you don’t think man has free Will but not clear on what man’s Will is , to you .

 

[LifelongLearner]

“That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind “

i don’t think you would see anything as an example of man having thier own Will. I still don’t even know what you mean by the term “ will “ honestly you seem to bounce around defining that term and say there’s no free Will. I was just showing an example to someone who I know is willing to consider a dynamic like how mans Will is thiers . And how Gods will interacts with and at times intervenes and changes the course of things.

Like the example there you missed the whole point

man’s own will was this for themselves

“They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭

And then this happened

“But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Gods Will was that they stop building the city and so by his divine intervention we see the limitations of man’s “ free Will “

Im not really even sure I disagree with you other than maybe the understanding of the term “ free Will “

the last explaination before this one you gave me I seemed to agree with sort of think we’re looking from different angles and you seem to be put to somehow “ prove “ man has no free Will …..which again I’m still not sure what you mean when you say “ free Will “ as on what the term actually means to you .

Where I began with you trying to get a definition of “ will “ to then see if we could determine whether it’s “ free “ or not sort of I never really understood your answer to that part . I’m clear that you don’t think man has free Will but not clear on what man’s Will is , to you .

"i don’t think you would see anything as an example of man having thier own Will. "

Doubt it's a spurious statement, i do think you have integrity but it's a fallacious one. An example of expecting me alone to instantly know and recall all comments, posted by the world and its uncle instead of you reading through them yourself.

I have stated again and again, we have choice, agency and WILL! It's FREE will we don't have, do you think you might be able to remember one little fact like that in future?

 

[LifelongLearner]

“That isn't an example of free will, it's an example of the hivemind “

i don’t think you would see anything as an example of man having thier own Will. I still don’t even know what you mean by the term “ will “ honestly you seem to bounce around defining that term and say there’s no free Will. I was just showing an example to someone who I know is willing to consider a dynamic like how mans Will is thiers . And how Gods will interacts with and at times intervenes and changes the course of things.

Like the example there you missed the whole point

man’s own will was this for themselves

“They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.””
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:3-4‬ ‭

And then this happened

“But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.” So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭11:5-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Gods Will was that they stop building the city and so by his divine intervention we see the limitations of man’s “ free Will “

Im not really even sure I disagree with you other than maybe the understanding of the term “ free Will “

the last explaination before this one you gave me I seemed to agree with sort of think we’re looking from different angles and you seem to be put to somehow “ prove “ man has no free Will …..which again I’m still not sure what you mean when you say “ free Will “ as on what the term actually means to you .

Where I began with you trying to get a definition of “ will “ to then see if we could determine whether it’s “ free “ or not sort of I never really understood your answer to that part . I’m clear that you don’t think man has free Will but not clear on what man’s Will is , to you .

Sorry PH, out of sorts because of all the trolling and just answering the same questions repeatedly. There is no bouncing around in my opinion on will, it's sort of a package, things like motivation and desire are part of it. We can unilaterally exercise it sometimes but often need the cooperation/permission of others to do so. Which means it isn't free will, only God himself is in possession of that.

 

[Magenta]

Free will = TRUE LIFE
And true life is that which God grants there is no other.

There is your definition.

Just looks like another of your contradictions. Unless you are saying the
natural man has been granted this life, which is not the free will position.

 

[Magenta]

And there is your problem......stumbling out of the gate.

Your problem is a slew of logical fallacies. I'll pass.

Plus I have you on ignore because you are one of the nastiest pieces of work around and a major liar to boot.

After talking to someone like you I get a really good idea of why God hates liars.

 

[Magenta]

💯

The words of Christ Jesus cause many problems for determinists.

Do you think all sins are accidental then, except for the fool who says in is heart, there is no God? Only atheists choose to sin?

Was Adam an atheist, then? Ponder that. It kind of blows your friend's stupid theory out the window.

You are too funny and extremely contradictory, but I know you cannot help it being in so much error as you are.

The Bible does not even come close to saying only atheists have a wicked heart, and/or fall short.

But you reject what the Bible actually does say so you can agree with your buddies.

I will help you grab a clue: there are none good.

 

[Magenta]

“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone. Mark ch. 10 verse 18 and Luke ch. 18 verse 19 “There is only One who is good.” Matthew ch. 19 verse 17b. There is no one who does good. fr Psalm ch. 14. There is no one righteous, not even one. Romans ch. 3 verse 10. They are corrupt; their ways are vile. There is no one who does good. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. fr Psalm ch. 53 verses 1-3. Surely there is no righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Ecclesiastes ch. 7 verse 20. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Seems a few need reminding of what the Bible actually says.

 

[Genez]

It's important to say how troubling the behaviour of so many who purport to be Christian, has been on this thread. Many view themselves as morally superior to non-believers, when attempted bullying of me for daring to state a contrary opinion to what amounts to a collective hivemind, has been pretty extraordinary.

Obviously, i'm not the type to be intimidated but do feel concern about the harm which has probably been done to less confident people. Thankfully, there are lots of truly spiritual, lovely people here but there are also many who need to take off their rose coloured glasses.

One must get used to that kind of response/reaction when in an open debate forum.
It goes with the territory....

 

[Magenta]

One must also get used to supposed Christians lying about what the Bible says, such as now we have been told that only atheists choose to sin and are then slaves to sin. Who else would then need the freedom from bondage that Jesus provides? Because everyone else is only committing oopsies, and they don't count. Thanks just the same Jesus, all those unbelievers said for years perhaps, but I do not need you to set me free from this body of sin and death. Just unbelievable how ridiculously Scripture is twisted to deny what it plainly says, and by so many! Truly unbelievable! Do take note of this, @LifelongLearner. It is not a rare occurrence, as you may have well learned by now...

But I will tell you something else. I was an unbeliever for let's just call it 50 years, and not one
second of that was as an atheist... but I still needed setting free, and I thank the Lord for doing so.

Psalm 14 verses 1-3; Job 15 verse 16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.

 

[GWH]

i do understand but think you're not understanding that i am one person on my own, who needs to respond to so many comments which are often deliberate trolling. Post a link to my reply, i'd actually like to take a rest from the stupidity soon. Instead of reading through comments themselves, silly people expect me to answer literally the same stupid questions/comments ad nauseam.

well, I do not find an answer in #1,561 or later to my question about how you justify hell if you disagree with the way I do so,
but that's okay, because I think I am the only person on CC who does so. I did find where you said "i've posted many comments mentioning how God literally pleads with people to turn from evil doing so he won't have to destroy them" in reply to my citing
Scripture indicating that God enables all to become believers if they will (Matt. 23:37, Deut. 30:19, 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11, etc.).

My understanding from Scripture about the justness of hell is as follows:

{{{A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

This, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Why would anyone choose to believe otherwise? Only God knows why people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in MT 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (MT 12:39, 24:24, JN 20:29 & 1CR 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).}}}

What do you think about this rationale for hell?
(Hope you don't mind the format of the citations; I need to change it on our website sometime.)

 

[LifelongLearner]

well, I do not find an answer in #1,561 or later to my question about how you justify hell if you disagree with the way I do so,
but that's okay, because I think I am the only person on CC who does so. I did find where you said "i've posted many comments mentioning how God literally pleads with people to turn from evil doing so he won't have to destroy them" in reply to my citing
Scripture indicating that God enables all to become believers if they will (Matt. 23:37, Deut. 30:19, 1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16, Tit. 2:11, etc.).

My understanding from Scripture about the justness of hell is as follows:

{{{A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

This, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken.

God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God. The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word. God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

Why would anyone choose to believe otherwise? Only God knows why people choose atheism. It is a mystery stated by Isaiah, which is cited by Jesus (in MT 13:14-15): “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused.” Apparently, this callous attitude demands God to nullify faith/MFW and thereby abrogate the essence of humanness by performing miracles in order to prove He exists (MT 12:39, 24:24, JN 20:29 & 1CR 1:22). In other words, atheists presume to know better than God; they want to usurp divine authority to determine what is best or good, but they may one day (at the eschaton per RV 20:15) wish they had admitted the possibility that God has ordained this mortal life on earth for the purpose of people proving to Him who is worthy of (qualified for) eternal life in heaven (cf. RM 2:5-8 & 2CR 13:5; heart/mind: hard or open?).

Such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules. The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9, 2PT 3:7 & RV 20:13-14).}}}

What do you think about this rationale for hell?
(Hope you don't mind the format of the citations; I need to change it on our website sometime.)

Unsure if you're aware of it but the fact is the trolling and misery caused to me on my own post, is down to the trolling and flaming you and your buddies started and continue.

I strongly suggest, demand even, you start your own post to discuss your pet theories and let this post breathe it's last. Hope you'll have the decency to but won't hold my breath.

 

[LifelongLearner]

One must also get used to supposed Christians lying about what the Bible says, such as now we have been told that only atheists choose to sin and are then slaves to sin. Who else would then need the freedom from bondage that Jesus provides? Because everyone else is only committing oopsies, and they don't count. Thanks just the same Jesus, all those unbelievers said for years perhaps, but I do not need you to set me free from this body of sin and death. Just unbelievable how ridiculously Scripture is twisted to deny what it plainly says, and by so many! Truly unbelievable! Do take note of this, @LifelongLearner. It is not a rare occurrence, as you may have well learned by now...

But I will tell you something else. I was an unbeliever for let's just call it 50 years, and not one
second of that was as an atheist... but I still needed setting free, and I thank the Lord for doing so.

Psalm 14 verses 1-3; Job 15 verse 16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.

You and i have much in common sweet sister, think you're an INTP, you're a fellow rational for sure. Sadly, this post of mine has been swamped by emotionally incontinent irrationals, to whom intelligent discussion is anathema. Unlike them, i'm actually happy to find out a pet belief of mine is plain wrong, rather than spout mental and verbal diarrhoea trying to defend the indefensible.

i have previously mentioned that the original idea for my maiden post, was titled Are You Sure It's The Spirit You're Full Of? Yes, i already suspected many people weren't quite what they professed themselves to be, also think that question has been answered in spades via this post. Thing is those people look down on forums like Christian Singles, where probably more spirituality, decency and rationality can be found, than in this forum. Thankfully, there are lovely, uplifting discussions on this forum for sure, however, it does have a huge trolling and flaming problem.

 

[GWH]

Unsure if you're aware of it but the fact is the trolling and misery caused to me on my own post, is down to the trolling and flaming you and your buddies started and continue.

I strongly suggest, demand even, you start your own post to discuss your pet theories and let this post breathe it's last. Hope you'll have the decency to but won't hold my breath.

From that reply I gather you think I was bad because of what I said in post #1,614, but you did not explain why
you think my "theory" or interpretation of the Scriptures I cited is incorrect,
and I have no idea why you call such a serious explanation of hell's justness based on MFW "trolling",
because it is right on topic, so please explain what was wrong with what I said. Thanks.

 

[LifelongLearner]

From that reply I gather you think I was bad because of what I said in post #1,614, but you did not explain why
you think my "theory" or interpretation of the Scriptures I cited is incorrect,
and I have no idea why you call such a serious explanation of hell's justness based on MFW "trolling",
because it is right on topic, so please explain what was wrong with what I said. Thanks.

I have, not absolutely certain if you are THAT lacking in discernment or still trolling. However, given your track record on my post, know what i think more likely.

 

[GWH]

I have, not absolutely certain if you are THAT lacking in discernment or still trolling. However, given your track record on my post, know what i think more likely.

Regarding my track record or being bad in the past, please accept my apologies and forgive those transgressions,
then explain why you think I sinned against you just now in #1,614--seriously, no trolling, enlighten my lack of discernment.

 

[LifelongLearner]

Regarding my track record or being bad in the past, please accept my apologies and forgive those transgressions,
then explain why you think I sinned against you just now in #1,614--seriously, no trolling, enlighten my lack of discernment.

Afraid not, almost certain you are still trolling as you persist in prolonging the life of a post which you and your friends have made a temple of trolling, not truth and discernment.

I f you want a genuine discussion, create a post of your own, i don't believe, let alone trust you currently.