Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[BillyBob]

TOP #250: From the beginning God planned to grace souls with salvation to heaven who believed in the Gospel that Jesus is Christ. [2Tim. 1:8-10]

You made reference to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 which reads as follows:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

• He saved us before time began!
• He called us with a holy calling before time began!
• Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.
• Which is now given to us in Christ Jesus.

God did not perform these acts just to watch them fail. Ask yourself, who is the us that is mentioned? Is it the entire human race, or is it His elect (the people of His choosing)?

It is good to see that you no longer believe in man's freewill, but now agree that we turn to God because of His calling, mercy, and grace (which can never fail)!

 

[cv5]

Too funny calling Scripture a practiced script. Of course NONE of you free willers have ANY Scripture supporting your view which actually repeatedly contradicts and denies what Scripture explicitly states in many ways over the vastness of the Bible content from start to finish. So all your complaints are hot air, really, just your vanity dressed up as intellectualism. Not even the the simplicity of Scripture like 1 Corinthians 2:14 can penetrate the fog created by the airs you put on. But God's Word will not return void for those with eyes to see.

[Isa 28:13 KJV]
But the word of the LORD was unto them ***(the super-determinists)*** precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

 

[lrs68]

You made reference to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 which reads as follows:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

• He saved us before time began!
• He called us with a holy calling before time began!
• Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.
• Which is now given to us in Christ Jesus.

God did not perform these acts just to watch them fail. Ask yourself, who is the us that is mentioned? Is it the entire human race, or is it His elect (the people of His choosing)?

It is good to see that you no longer believe in man's freewill, but now agree that we turn to God because of His calling, mercy, and grace (which can never fail)!

All those verses confirm is before time began God chose Jesus to save those who would believe and have a holy calling upon their life. It's all about Jesus. I don't read one single person's name in those verses but Jesus because Jesus was chosen to provide the way of salvation and holy calling for all those things to happen before time ever began.

 

[BillyBob]

All those verses confirm is before time began God chose Jesus to save those who would believe

It's good to know that, on top of everything else, God has now been defined as a fortune teller!

 

[cv5]

How is it you are here this long and are still inept at quoting properly? Also I am unclear about what the verses you provide are supposed to show. I mean it is not like any of us who oppose all the ridiculous assertions put forth by free willers deny what Scripture says. The free will crowd is infamous for doing that, though! You are essentially agreeing with what we have said and then throw in a whole bunch of completely irrelevant verses, and add explanations as if they are somehow required when they have zero to do with the conversation. You also seem ignorant of the fact that some here claim God is not required to intervene in any way at all.

You do realize that this is utterly conclusive conceptually.....correct?

Now we have received G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

G2983
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

================================================================================

[2Ki 6:5 KJV]
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

[2Ki 6:6 KJV]
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim.

[2Ki 6:7 KJV]
Therefore said (COMMANDED) he (the Man of God aka the God-Man), Take [it] up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

 

[cv5]

Your gobbeldegoop is meaningless. Speak English please. You lied about doing this before.

Many of the Scriptures you post are not in contention. But if they are relevant to the discussion you should be
placing them before the free will crowd. They love to contradict and deny what God's revealed written Word says.

The contradiction lies with the super-determinists. Obviously.

The Pharisees thought they were born saved..................Proven wrong by Jesus Himself.
Calvinites think they are pre-born saved.................................Same heresy amped to the next level.

And what does the Final Authority say about this?

He says that you must be BORN ***AGAIN*** AFTER you were firstly born in sin.
Not PRE-SELECTED BEFORE you were born when there IS NO SIN.

IMO the pharisaical doctrine of being "born saved" and "saved by surgery" was the ultimate cause of the downfall of the nation.
They lost their salvation message mojo (that being ANYONE may enter the covenant of His Blood) and then they lost their commission and nation.

 

[cv5]

Your gobbeldegoop is meaningless. Speak English please. You lied about doing this before.

Many of the Scriptures you post are not in contention. But if they are relevant to the discussion you should be
placing them before the free will crowd. They love to contradict and deny what God's revealed written Word says.

So much for your "natural man" theory. Let's move on shall we?

**********************************************************************************************************************************

These people did not TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will. Simple as that.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not G3756 the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The KJV translates Strong's G1209 in the following manner: receive (52x), take (4x), accept (2x), take up (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to take with the hand
   1. to take hold of, take up

********************************************************************************************

Whereas these people DID TAKE THE GIFT THAT WAS OFFERED. By an act of their own volition, their desire, their will.

1Co 2:12
Now we have received, G2983 , not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


The KJV translates Strong's G2983 in the following manner: receive (133x), take (106x), have (3x), caught (3x), not translated (1x), miscellaneous (17x).

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to take
   1. to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
      1. to take up a thing to be carried
      2. to take upon one's self

 

[cv5]

Too funny calling Scripture a practiced script. Of course NONE of you free willers have ANY Scripture supporting your view which actually repeatedly contradicts and denies what Scripture explicitly states in many ways over the vastness of the Bible content from start to finish. So all your complaints are hot air, really, just your vanity dressed up as intellectualism. Not even the the simplicity of Scripture like 1 Corinthians 2:14 can penetrate the fog created by the airs you put on. But God's Word will not return void for those with eyes to see.

Perhaps the line-upon-line crowd will quit falling over backwards one of these days?

***************************************************************************************************************

[Num 21:9 KJV]
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

[Jhn 3:14 KJV]
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be ***lifted up:***

[Jhn 6:40 KJV]
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son (***lifted up***), and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[Jhn 6:51 KJV]
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

[Jhn 6:54 KJV]
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[cv5]

Your dog and cat exercise free will. So do your kids.

So you actually believe that your cats DO NOT exercise free will @LifelongLearner ?

Come on man cats are NOTORIOUS free-willers!

 

[lrs68]

It's good to know that, on top of everything else, God has now been defined as a fortune teller!

Ever hear of prophecy?

It's about something going to happen before it happens.

We have literally 20 Prophets throughout the Old Testament prophesying about future things to come.

Clearly, God being Omniscient [ALL KNOWING] is beyond some peoples grasp and understanding even though the Bible is full of that knowledge and teaching.

And when things foretold come to pass we call that Prophecy fulfilled... IMAGINE THAT!!

So when Jesus fulfilled God's prophetic like Paul writes about we understand it was fulfilled on the CROSS.

As a Follower of God this should be common knowledge [(UNLESS)] one is following man made baloney..

 

[lrs68]

Isaiah wrote that our God is the [(only God)] to know the ending. Paul said Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. So if God is both the Beginning and the End that means He knows the in-between of the Beginning and the End or He knows Everything.

So to use the word fortune teller to describe God reveals the lacking of knowledge one truly has when concerning who and what God is.

It reveals their knowledge is from a man made doctrine and not the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[Magenta]

All those verses confirm is before time began God chose Jesus to save those who would believe and have a holy calling upon their life. It's all about Jesus. I don't read one single person's name in those verses but Jesus because Jesus was chosen to provide the way of salvation and holy calling for all those things to happen before time ever began.

From 1 Peter 1 verses 3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Magenta]

It's good to know that, on top of everything else, God has now been defined as a fortune teller!

All those poor people whose names are not in the Bible. Who knew? They have no chance.

It's worse than the free-will crowd ever imagined according to some of these people who distort the Word of God.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[lrs68]

From 1 Peter 1 verses 3-5 ~ The elect are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood. By His great mercy He has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I see nothing you claim in these 3 verses about foreknowledge or chosen.

Clearly those verses to read as your post means someone made them to mean something that Clearly isn't being said at all.

 

[GWH]

You made reference to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 which reads as follows:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

• He saved us before time began!
• He called us with a holy calling before time began!
• Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.
• Which is now given to us in Christ Jesus.

God did not perform these acts just to watch them fail. Ask yourself, who is the us that is mentioned? Is it the entire human race, or is it His elect (the people of His choosing)?

It is good to see that you no longer believe in man's freewill, but now agree that we turn to God because of His calling, mercy, and grace (which can never fail)!

Wow! Someone willing to discuss the best interpretation of Scripture instead of being pejorative, which is refreshing.

Regarding "It is good to see that you no longer believe in man's freewill, but now agree that we turn to God because of His calling, mercy, and grace (which can never fail)!": I have always believed that souls have MFW, but interactions with tulipists on CC has prompted me to clarify or elaborate what I mean by saying "God initiates; sinners cooperate--or not". Such clarification that I have added to our website (bolded) includes the following:

Jesus Himself expressed GRFS even more succinctly using three, four and five letter words: “Ask… seek… knock…” (Matt. 7:7). This indicates that God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to understand how to be saved (MT 7:7, cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11), which might be called “seeking grace” (Tit. 2:11). As Hebrews 11:6 states: “he [God] rewards those who earnestly seek him” (cf. Isa. 45:19).

Seeking God is the beginning of saving faith, and not seeking God or rejecting His salvation in Christ is the essence of evil atheism or faith in I-dolatry (Rom. 3:11, 1:18-23). All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith (per Rom. 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16 & 5:8-19). Thus, sinful humanity retains the image of God or moral free will, so every normal adult soul is able by faith to choose to seek salvation–or not (cf. Deut. 30:19).

The distinction between kerygma and didache involves a difference in content and purpose. The kerygma proclaims GRFS, which calls for repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Lord, which is an all or nothing decision that occurs at one moment in time. The didache teaches God’s will regarding how saints or those who have been saved should live in order to be a good witness for Christ, which involves learning more of God’s Word throughout one’s lifetime.

A passage teaching this truth is Colossians 2:6-7: “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord [kerygma], continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught [didache].” There is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (EPH 2:8-10, 2CR 5:7, RM 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes–and of course faith remains non-meritorious during the saint’s entire lifetime.

Regarding 2 Timothy 1:8-10:

1. You - He saved us before time began!
Me - God devised His POS before time began.

2. You - He called us with a holy calling before time began!
Me - God's plan was to save all who cooperate with His POS.

3. You - Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.
Me - Agreed.

4. You - Which is now given to us in Christ Jesus.
Me - Agreed.

5. You - God did not perform these acts just to watch them fail.
Me - Agreed (?) that God's POS does not fail.

6. You - Ask yourself, who is the us that is mentioned?
Me - Us is those who have cooperated with God's POS.

7. You - Is it the entire human race, or is it His elect (the people of His choosing)?
Me - Sometimes "us" refers to everyone, so we must use discernment.

Over...

 

[LifelongLearner]

That's what i say too, we're on the same page Mem. It's why i'm so fed up with trolls like GWH spamming my post to disrupt intelligent, courteous discussion.

Aww, hope it's nothing personal 2ndTimeIsTheCharm but i almost admire the dedication

 

[lrs68]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

I wonder why when people mention verses 29-30 they never show verse 28?

Verse 28 shows who verses 29-30 are talking about.

28 And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose

 

[Magenta]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I see nothing you claim in these 3 verses about foreknowledge or chosen.

Clearly those verses to read as your post means someone made them to mean something that Clearly isn't being said at all.

Ah, my apologies, as the elect and foreknowledge of God are mentioned in verse one. I can well imagine what you are going to say next, about how the elect are Jews, as if nothing said of Jews can ever be applied to others. How nobody is ever chosen by God and it is never by the foreknowledge of God, will that be your next assertion? Oh, but you are one of the special ones are you not? A Hebrew roots person? Yes, I get it it. Everything is always only about such people, and the rest be damned. I understand. It is about nations, some say. Oh, really? Then Jacob and Esau enter the convo. I do understand that Jacob and Esau represent nations, but it is not really about nations. More about how people are grouped, and according to Scripture it boils down to believers and unbelievers, true Israel being spiritual descendants of Abraham whose offspring number greater than the grains of sand and stars in the sky, those who will escape the second death, and unbelievers as represented by Easu, Edomites, enemies of God, unbelievers... those who will suffer the second death. Or will you tell me you were not personally chosen? Do you think you are saved because of your physical earthly heritage? I hope not.

From Galatians 4:22-24 plus 28-29 and 5:1 Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise. These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery. We, like Isaac, are children of promise. The son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not be encumbered once more by a yoke of slavery.

 

[Rufus]

You are not making much sense here. Is this too one of your parlour tricks?

It sounds like Studier could have been a protege of the Queen of Word Salads.