Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Isaiah 6 verses 9-10, Luke 8 verse 10, (Matthew 13 verses 14-15, Mark 4 verse 12, Romans 11 verse 8, John 12 verses 39-40, Acts 28 verses 26-27, Ezekiel 12 verse 2, Jeremiah 5 verse 21, Deuteronomy 29 verse 4, Psalm 115 verses 4-8, Psalm 135 verses 15-18) ~ The voice of the Lord said: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’

 

[Rufus]

The still small voice is heard and processed by the MIND.

You have it wrong thinking that the heart and mind are connected.

But enjoy your beliefs.

They are comical for sure

Nah...She has it right and you have it all wrong! Read and weep!

Gen 6:5
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
NIV

Prov 23:7
7 For as he thinketh within himself, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; But his heart is not with thee.
ASV

Jer 4:14
14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
NIV

Matt 9:4
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
NIV

Matt 15:19-20a
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'...
NIV

James 4:8
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
NIV

You love the satanic lie of "freewill" which is why you cannot help think in your heart that there must be a dichotomy between mind and heart, being willfully oblivious to the fact that the human heart is the seat of all man's faculties.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 29 verse 27, Luke 16 verse 15b ~ The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright. What is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

 

[lrs68]

Nah...She has it right and you have it all wrong! Read and weep!

Gen 6:5
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
NIV

Prov 23:7
7 For as he thinketh within himself, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; But his heart is not with thee.
ASV

Jer 4:14
14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
NIV

Matt 9:4
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
NIV

Matt 15:19-20a
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'...
NIV

James 4:8
8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
NIV

You love the satanic lie of "freewill" which is why you cannot help think in your heart that there must be a dichotomy between mind and heart, being willfully oblivious to the fact that the human heart is the seat of all man's faculties.

Your verses all say heart so obviously you don't comprehend anatomy either. No wonder you believe as you do.

 

[Rufus]

What I’m saying is We aren’t meant to judge other people that’s Jesus job .

We of course make “righteous “ judgements every day about a multitude of things . we aren’t meant to put our judgements on other people is what I’m saying. And it’s really really important because it’s going to return to us the same way

If there’s a perfect person worthy to judge me or you his name is Jesus that’s really part of the doctrine


what Paul’s talking about there is for instance a liar who thinks he has the right to judge an adulterer but really they are both sinners needing repentance and mercy from zgod or they’ll not be saved

or an adulterer who thinks he has the right to judge a thief but really they are both breaking the lords commandments and shouldn’t be judging one another because be sinner isnt more worthy than another is the idea to judge people only Jesus is

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My point is pauos talking about imperfect people judging other imperfect people and how that’s going to backfire on them in the end I’m not sure sinners judge other sinners righteously

but I do.know Jesus will


“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think we’d also need to get into “ what exactly is judging someone ? “ to be more clear

But generally consistently in the nt we’re taught as believers not to judge the others to wait for Jesus to do that

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, ( we can’t do that part so our judgement is lacking ) and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: ( we don’t know other peoples hearts and minds and inner struggle but he does ) and then shall every man have praise of God.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We simply aren’t worthy to judge others brother we need to recognize our place is actually here

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; ( not on his judgement seat but brought before it ) that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭

rather than as the one on the throne judging the peoples deeds ……we’re the ones that have to be judged by the appointed judge of all mankind

Sharing his judgments in the gospel is the way

Im not entirely sure what your meaning by judge righteously, I know provabky some scriptures you are referring to but not what you are meaning when you say judge righteously regarding the subject of not judging and condemning others . Can you explain what judging righteously means when you’re saying it ?

Really? We're not meant to judge other people! Is that why God set up judicial standards in the Law of Moses? What were the judges in Israel supposed to judge: The sun, moon, stars, rocks, trees, animals??? Or even under the New Covenant, is not the Church authorized to render righteous judgments against believers, congregants, etc. to settle disputes, unlawful, etc.? Or what about the divine institution of human government after the Flood: I suppose you'd be in favor of dismantling all human judicial authority?

All Jesus is saying is that we should avoid judging each other unrighteously. Great example of this is seen with the self-righteous praying Pharisee who glibly judged and condemned the tax collector who was also praying next to him (Lk 18:10ff.)

 

[GWH]

There are atheist better morally towards others than Christians because even though the flesh is evil their thoughts tells them this is wrong.

The mind is separate from the body and could function without the body on life support.

Yes, atheists influenced by biblical teachings may accept the validity of morality or of acting in accordance with a reciprocity principle or the “golden rule” (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, cf. Matt. 7:12), and they are satisfied with whatever meaning can be derived from this earthly existence.

The problem with this view is that humanity has also had a proclivity toward evil throughout history, so there is no basis for saying the negative force toward others is not equally valid and for mandating a universal golden rule or moral imperative. Logically, all it can offer is a “pyrite suggestion”. Morally, it merely continues struggle/KOTH (king of the hill).

 

[Rufus]

Your verses all say heart so obviously you don't comprehend anatomy either. No wonder you believe as you do.

Those scriptures don't speak to the physical heart pumping blood -- but rather to the spiritual essence of man. You think all those passages are talking about thoughts that reside in the physical heart? Even dictionaries put together largely by ungodly secularists acknowledge and recognize this fact. The third definition in the M-W Collegiate is: 3 a : PERSONALITY, DISPOSITION *a cold heart* b obsolete : INTELLECT

In short, Jesus had it right. You? Not so much. You're too in love with the lie.

 

[lrs68]

Those scriptures don't speak to the physical heart pumping blood -- but rather to the spiritual essence of man. You think all those passages are talking about thoughts that reside in the physical heart? Even dictionaries put together largely by ungodly secularists acknowledge and recognize this fact. The third definition in the M-W Collegiate is: 3 a : PERSONALITY, DISPOSITION *a cold heart* b obsolete : INTELLECT

In short, Jesus had it right. You? Not so much. You're too in love with the lie.

It's still not about the mind. Those verses speak about emotions and feelings and that's not mental stimulation but physical. You simply reject truth for man made illogic.

 

[lrs68]

Yes, atheists influenced by biblical teachings may accept the validity of morality or of acting in accordance with a reciprocity principle or the “golden rule” (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, cf. Matt. 7:12), and they are satisfied with whatever meaning can be derived from this earthly existence.

The problem with this view is that humanity has also had a proclivity toward evil throughout history, so there is no basis for saying the negative force toward others is not equally valid and for mandating a universal golden rule or moral imperative. Logically, all it can offer is a “pyrite suggestion”. Morally, it merely continues struggle/KOTH (king of the hill).

It's like for hundreds of years people went to school with weapons for show and tale and walked into the front door reading the 10 commandments and not a single person was ever murdered.

2 years after Albright won the Supreme Court and they removed the 10 commandments from schools we had our first shooting at columbine in Colorado. And had at least one school shooting across the USA yearly ever since.

My example is similar but atheist are many times doing more for humanity than Christians do.

 

[studier]

You made reference to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 which reads as follows:

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

• He saved us before time began!
• He called us with a holy calling before time began!
• Not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace.
• Which is now given to us in Christ Jesus.

God did not perform these acts just to watch them fail. Ask yourself, who is the us that is mentioned? Is it the entire human race, or is it His elect (the people of His choosing)?

It is good to see that you no longer believe in man's freewill, but now agree that we turn to God because of His calling, mercy, and grace (which can never fail)!

Technically & specifically it's His purpose/plan and grace that was given to us in Christ who is Jesus before time eternal. The "us" part I'll cover below.

God's Advance Plan/Purpose (prothesis) and Grace doesn't fail due to man's volitional rejection/unbelief which Paul covered in Rom3:3.

As in other parts of Scripture pertaining to this topic, God gave His Son and this His Plan and Grace to mankind / the "entire human race" = the whole / the set. The subset of mankind who volitionally take hold of this (cc @cv5) by choosing to believe and thereby join "His elect" in Christ, are the ultimate beneficiaries of God's Plan and Grace in Christ. So again, no failure on God's part just as Paul said in Rom. It's men who fail.

By their "freewill" some men "turn to God because of His calling/invitation, mercy, and grace". In doing so they join the people/community of His Elect One.

 

[Magenta]

Those scriptures don't speak to the physical heart pumping blood -- but rather to the spiritual essence of man. You think all those passages are talking about thoughts that reside in the physical heart? Even dictionaries put together largely by ungodly secularists acknowledge and recognize this fact. The third definition in the M-W Collegiate is: 3 a : PERSONALITY, DISPOSITION *a cold heart* b obsolete : INTELLECT

In short, Jesus had it right. You? Not so much. You're too in love with the lie.

They simply reject what the Scriptures say. Sad.

Romans 10 verse 10

New International Version
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

New Living Translation
For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved.

English Standard Version
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Berean Standard Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Berean Literal Bible
For in the heart is belief unto righteousness, and in the mouth is confession unto salvation.

King James Bible
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

New King James Version
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

New American Standard Bible
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

NASB 1995
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

NASB 1977
for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Legacy Standard Bible
for with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

Christian Standard Bible
One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.

American Standard Version
for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

English Revised Version
for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

International Standard Version
For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.

NET Bible
For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation.

New Heart English Bible
For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth acknowledgment is made, resulting in salvation.

Webster's Bible Translation
For with the heart man believeth to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.

Weymouth New Testament
For with the heart men believe and obtain righteousness, and with the mouth they make confession and obtain salvation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Really? We're not meant to judge other people! Is that why God set up judicial standards in the Law of Moses? What were the judges in Israel supposed to judge: The sun, moon, stars, rocks, trees, animals??? Or even under the New Covenant, is not the Church authorized to render righteous judgments against believers, congregants, etc. to settle disputes, unlawful, etc.? Or what about the divine institution of human government after the Flood: I suppose you'd be in favor of dismantling all human judicial authority?

All Jesus is saying is that we should avoid judging each other unrighteously. Great example of this is seen with the self-righteous praying Pharisee who glibly judged and condemned the tax collector who was also praying next to him (Lk 18:10ff.)

“Really? We're not meant to judge other people! Is that why God set up judicial standards in the Law of Moses?”

yeah …. We aren’t supposed to judge other people when we aren’t any better than them this is why

“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1, 3-5‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Seems pretty clear huh ?

“You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written: “ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ” So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God. Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭NIV‬‬

but I mean if you want to learn Moses doctrine be my guest

“We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. ….. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭

Seems pretty straight forward but I forgot for a mi it’s your motivation is to argue

 

[studier]

It sounds like Studier could have been a protege of the Queen of Word Salads.

Good argument. Would you like me to make it simpler for you? Sure. You make things up to try to make your erroneous tradition work.

Hope that helps.

 

[Cameron143]

Technically & specifically it's His purpose/plan and grace that was given to us in Christ who is Jesus before time eternal. The "us" part I'll cover below.

God's Advance Plan/Purpose (prothesis) and Grace doesn't fail due to man's volitional rejection/unbelief which Paul covered in Rom3:3.

As in other parts of Scripture pertaining to this topic, God gave His Son and this His Plan and Grace to mankind / the "entire human race" = the whole / the set. The subset of mankind who volitionally take hold of this (cc @cv5) by choosing to believe and thereby join "His elect" in Christ, are the ultimate beneficiaries of God's Plan and Grace in Christ. So again, no failure on God's part just as Paul said in Rom. It's men who fail.

By their "freewill" some men "turn to God because of His calling/invitation, mercy, and grace". In doing so they join the people/community of His Elect One.

So then faith is the result of what? Man's reason or the Spirit of God?

 

[lrs68]

They simply reject what the Scriptures say. Sad.

Romans 10 verse 10

New International Version
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

New Living Translation
For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by openly declaring your faith that you are saved.

English Standard Version
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Berean Standard Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

Berean Literal Bible
For in the heart is belief unto righteousness, and in the mouth is confession unto salvation.

King James Bible
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

New King James Version
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

New American Standard Bible
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

NASB 1995
for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

NASB 1977
for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Legacy Standard Bible
for with the heart a person believes, leading to righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, leading to salvation.

Amplified Bible
For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.

Christian Standard Bible
One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.

American Standard Version
for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Contemporary English Version
God will accept you and save you, if you truly believe this and tell it to others.

English Revised Version
for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
By believing you receive God's approval, and by declaring your faith you are saved.

Good News Translation
For it is by our faith that we are put right with God; it is by our confession that we are saved.

International Standard Version
For one believes with his heart and is justified, and declares with his mouth and is saved.

NET Bible
For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation.

New Heart English Bible
For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth acknowledgment is made, resulting in salvation.

Webster's Bible Translation
For with the heart man believeth to righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.

Weymouth New Testament
For with the heart men believe and obtain righteousness, and with the mouth they make confession and obtain salvation.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

World English Bible
For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made resulting in salvation.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
for with the heart [one] believes to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

Berean Literal Bible
For in the heart is belief unto righteousness, and in the mouth is confession unto salvation.

Young's Literal Translation
for with the heart doth one believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;

Smith's Literal Translation
For with the heart is believed for justice: and with the mouth is confessed for salvation.
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
For, with the heart, we believe unto justice; but, with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation.

Catholic Public Domain Version
For with the heart, we believe unto justice; but with the mouth, confession is unto salvation.

New American Bible
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

New Revised Standard Version
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
For the heart which believes in him, shall be declared righteous, and the mouth that confesses him shall live.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the heart that believes in him is made right, and the mouth that confesses him has life.
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
For with the heart we believe, in order to justification; and with the mouth we make confession, it order to salvation.

Godbey New Testament
for with the heart it is believed unto righteousness; and with the mouth it is confessed unto salvation.

Haweis New Testament
For with the heart faith is exercised unto righteousness; and with the mouth is confession made unto salvation.

Mace New Testament
for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Weymouth New Testament
For with the heart men believe and obtain righteousness, and with the mouth they make confession and obtain salvation.

None of that mentioned the mind.

Belief isn't something you think it's something you feel. You only feel in your heart and that's what the heart thinks portion is in those verses. It's talking about feelings and beliefs are feelings.

How is something so obvious but no one can understand it?

 

[Magenta]

And Pilgrim's hope finds it funny? Odd. Oh, well, he is another who rejects what Scripture says while presenting himself as a believer.

Rejecting the very words of Jesus Christ Himself. Denying what He said in favour of what he says. That is sad also.

And not laughable. But you can laugh at the truth of it if you like. You probably do. It's funny to you for some reason.

And that is sad also.

 

[Rufus]

It's still not about the mind. Those verses speak about emotions and feelings and that's not mental stimulation but physical. You simply reject truth for man made illogic.

In those verses I posted earlier, they all spoke to THOUGHTS -- thoughts in the human heart. But according to you, this cannot possibly be since all thoughts reside only in one's mind, don't they? I mean...what part of this text can you not understand:

Matt 15:19-20a
19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what make a man 'unclean'...?
NIV

There's a reason why Prov 4:23 teaches those who eyes to see "That above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life". But I suppose you think Solomon was teaching everyone to guard the heart that is pumping blood, right?

 

[studier]

You love the satanic lie of "freewill"

Again, the script that makes other than TULIPers unbelievers - satanic lie lovers even.

Doesn't take long anymore to get this out in the open. At least we don't have to waste 10-15k posts getting there.

 

[GWH]

You're on a roll today, Girl! Your post is a keeper! But...you're going to confuse all the FWers with this much info. Besides...all the above are just trivial matters, minor spiritual handicaps which man's mighty "freewill" can easily overcome.

The roll lists various sins, but it has nothing to do with the TULIP vs. MFW debate,
so YOU are confused if you think it does.

 

[Magenta]

Again, the script that makes other than TULIPers unbelievers - satanic lie lovers even.

Doesn't take long anymore to get this out in the open. At least we don't have to waste 10-15k posts getting there.

Scripture makes plain that the natural man's will is not free. Why it takes any length of time to convince
so-called believers of what Scripture says is perplexing. Oh, aside from the fact that they are very attached
to their lies which hey, they come from the devil, right? Or do you deny that as well???