Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[Magenta]

Ecclesiastes 7 verse 14 When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider this: God has made the one as well as the other. Lamentations 3 verses 37-38 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? Job 14 verse 5 A person's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed. Jeremiah 10 verse 23 Lord, I know that people’s lives are not their own; it is not for them to direct their steps. Psalm 33 verses 10-11 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of His heart through all generations.

 

[Magenta]

Proverbs 19 verse 21 Jeremiah 10 verse 23b ~ Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. No one who walks directs his own steps.

 

[Kroogz]

Not to one who cannot comprehend it. But I know you deny this along with multiple other Scripture Truths.

The gospel is the power of salvation to those who believe.

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Start focusing on the glory of God. You have mankind and his faults wired , but you seem to leave God OUT.

 

[Magenta]

Since you don't believe that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind, then explain to me how Adam can be a type of Christ?

There are quite a few Pelagian heretics here... They deny a multitude of Scriptural truths to hold to their vain man-exalting theology.

Pelagian heretics insist man is inherently good. From within the hearts of men come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, arrogance, and foolishness. Mark 7 verses 21-22 Every inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. Genesis 8 verse 21b Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14 verse 4 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7 verse 18

 

[Kroogz]

Since you don't believe that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind, then explain to me how Adam can be a type of Christ?

That is THE question!

To a calvie there is no doubt that Adam was 110% successful. But Christ couldn't pull it off, He was only 10-30% successful.

 

[sawdust]

John 16:8
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Start focusing on the glory of God. You have mankind and his faults wired , but you seem to leave God OUT.

The irony is that they will recognise the "truth shall set you free" but when God comes to us in grace and truth it just isn't quite enough to set the will free so it can choose for itself, God always has to do more. Go figure.

 

[Rufus]

Yes but you didn't explain Adam's excuse for sinning. The fact Adam sinned of his own free will shows the model of God's creation and therefore to ignore the fact that God comes to us in grace and truth ( Jn.1:14 ) enabling our bound will to be free for the purpose of responding to the Gospel, is disingenuous.

Romans 7 is Paul's unsaved experience. Why would he cry out at the end for salvation if he was already saved.

Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Any Christian who is still experiencing Romans 7 on a regular basis either is new to the faith and has yet to learn how to walk or they are ignorant and have never learned to walk and are still crawling around in their diapers.

Why would you think Adam had an excuse for sinning!? What excuse did Lucifer have for sinning!? Having said that, we should still understand that the Fall of Mankind was within God's purview; for He decreed in both cases that sin enter this world -- just as He has also decreed/ordained/determined that at the end of this age when Christ returns, sin will no longer be present in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Magenta]

The irony is that they will recognise the "truth shall set you free" but when God comes to us in grace and truth it just isn't quite enough to set the will free so it can choose for itself, God always has to do more. Go figure.

Can you say anything without contradicting yourself?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Do you think since he was told what he must do - that it made him able to do it?

“Do you think since he was told what he must do - that it made him able to do it?”

I think because he believed that Jesus is the Christ yes because he hears what he said , he now had faith to act upon it

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think if you look back to Eden you see that what caused man’s problem eas the wrong information . God told them the truth but then Satan lied to them. They followed the lie and left the truth behind

I really think you hit on my belief God makes us able when we listen to his word believing in the one saying it

It’s how I understand this to be true

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

hes saying that because his word gives us faith and we are saved by faith and walk by faith fait comes from hearing his word . That’s the ne of the things he came to do tell us the right thing about God , salvation , eternal life , our own selves and our place in Gods design ect as we listen to him more we hear more of the truth about all those things and as we hear more it begins to be written on our hesrts to where we remember and retain the more that we are seeking

We need to then apply those things more and more it isnt one time thing in my belief but a lifetime commitment to follow after the lord to turn to him when we fail and fall and stick with him when we are walking upright . I believe the doctrine Jesus taught is what teaches us the things we need to know and believe about God and man and eternity

and that listening to him is the source of freedom from Mans condition of rebellion against thier creator due to a lie

 

[Rufus]

That is THE question!

To a calvie there is no doubt that Adam was 110% successful. But Christ couldn't pull it off, He was only 10-30% successful.

Quit projecting your beliefs unto me or any other believer in the Reformed Tradition. Christ's success in your world is very limited because, after all, He doesn't effectually save anyone; very much unlike Christ doesn't actually save anyone. He only provides opportunities. The rest is up to the sinner.

Meanwhile, in the world of the Holy Word of God, this same Jesus said that all that the Father gives to Him will come to Him and he'll give them eternal life (raise them up on the last day), cf. Jn 6:37; 17:2). So...how can "all" not be "110% successful"? It's FWT that teaches that the sons of men can upset, thwart or wreck God's plans and purposes.

 

[Rufus]

“Do you think since he was told what he must do - that it made him able to do it?”

I think because he believed that Jesus is the Christ yes because he hears what he said , he now had faith to act upon it

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think if you look back to Eden you see that what caused man’s problem eas the wrong information . God told them the truth but then Satan lied to them. They followed the lie and left the truth behind

I really think you hit on my belief God makes us able when we listen to his word believing in the one saying it

It’s how I understand this to be true

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

hes saying that because his word gives us faith and we are saved by faith and walk by faith fait comes from hearing his word . That’s the ne of the things he came to do tell us the right thing about God , salvation , eternal life , our own selves and our place in Gods design ect as we listen to him more we hear more of the truth about all those things and as we hear more it begins to be written on our hesrts to where we remember and retain the more that we are seeking

We need to then apply those things more and more it isnt one time thing in my belief but a lifetime commitment to follow after the lord to turn to him when we fail and fall and stick with him when we are walking upright . I believe the doctrine Jesus taught is what teaches us the things we need to know and believe about God and man and eternity

and that listening to him is the source of freedom from Mans condition of rebellion against thier creator due to a lie

Hah...so that's how Jesus healed the physically deaf!? First they had to listen to him with their deaf ears and then he'd cure them of their deafness. And this makes perfectly good sense in your loony world of FWT.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Hah...so that's how Jesus healed the physically deaf!? First they had to listen to him with their deaf ears and then he'd cure them of their deafness. And this makes perfectly good sense in your loony world of FWT.

I was answering someone’s question not initiating another circular argument with you. I’m not interested

 

[studier]

No unregenerate person rejoices in God's Law.

So, no pre-Christ Israelite rejoiced in God's Law?

 

[GWH]

Newsflash Two: The Abrahamic Covenant is also about more than messianic prophecy. It's also about the establishment of a nation (Israel) that God would bring into a covenant relationship with, and also about Abraham becoming the [spiritual] father of many Gentile nations since God would one day also bring the Gentiles into the covenant via the New Covenant.

And Ex 4 long precedes Ex 9:34 in the chronology of the Exodus narrative. Pharaoh hardened his own heart as a result of God's decree! (So, as usual you get everything backwards.) In Ex 3, God predicted to Moses that Pharaoh will not let His people go! In Ex 4, He then tells Moses HOW he knows this, and it wasn't by God's prescience but rather by his prerogative (decree), "I will harden his heart"! Ex 9, therefore, expresses the fulfillment of this prophecy, proving once again the compatibility of God's decretive will with man's will. And also this narrative proves the veracity of Eph 1:11 -- that's God's will is never contingent upon any of his creatures'.

"also" = both/and

You blame God for sinners' sins ; I praise God for loving sinners. ; (either/or)

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus is 100% effectual. All that the Father has given Him will come to Him. Additionally, He says He loses none.

 

[Lamar]

Free willers do not really agree with that. They believe darkness comprehends the light even though Scripture says otherwise.

Free willers do not believe that "darkness comprehends the light" and you know this.

This is the truth.

Free willers believe that we can chose between the darkness and the light.

Calvinists believe that we cannot chose between the darkness and the light.

 

[Lamar]

Jesus is 100% effectual. All that the Father has given Him will come to Him. Additionally, He says He loses none.

The phrases:

"has given Him will come to Him" and "He loses none"

are these apply before or after the Book of Life is opened on Judgement Day?

 

[GWH]

God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). All explanations of reality and interpretations of Scripture should conform to this certitude: “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” (Psa. 145:17) The Judge is just. It would be better not to attempt an explanation of God’s Word than to state one that impugns God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16).

Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love. Hebrews 12:4-11 offers the clue for harmonizing these two themes. This passage indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline: to teach people to repent of their hatefulness or faithlessness (Pro. 3:12, Isa. 33:14-15 Rev. 3:19) before they die, after which divine wrath will be experienced justly without the opportunity for repentance.

If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what occurred rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of how people should behave. Of course, because God is loving and just, He does not tempt, trick, confuse or otherwise contribute to anyone’s sinfulness. On the contrary, God must be doing all that He can do without abrogating justice or volition (MFW) to influence people not to be deceived and become self-condemned (Jam. 1:13-17, Tit. 3:11, Isa. 45:19).

This realization should steer us away from the problematic opinion (a la Augustine via John Calvin) that God predestines most people for hell and lead us to affirm moral free will as a paradoxical fact (Deut. 30:19). It is paradoxical, because it affirms both that God is sovereign and that God chooses not to control moral thinking, because doing so would nullify human responsibility for sin, making the biblical revelation of salvation based on repentance irrelevant and absurd.

 

[Cameron143]

The phrases:

"has given Him will come to Him" and "He loses none"

are these apply before or after the Book of Life is opened on Judgement Day?

Been happening since the fall.

 

[Magenta]

Free willers do not believe that "darkness comprehends the light" and you know this.

This is the truth.

Free willers believe that we can chose between the darkness and the light.

Calvinists believe that we cannot chose between the darkness and the light.

I believe what the Bible says and the Bible says that darkness does not comprehend the light and that the lost (who are defined as darkness) refuse to come into the light because they love darkness and suppress the truth in unrighteousness, and it tells us why also ... and I've said it many times, but you are free to believe whatever you want, to tell whatever lies you are inclined to tell, because I know that is your heart's desire. The free will claim is that from this state of being a slave to sin taken captive to do the will of the devil the unregenerated man is free and can choose to believe that which is foolishness to him.