Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Salvation has always been by grace through faith. What's that got to do with God's command to believe His word or die?
It seems to me you are one who, like @Cameron143, think believing (an act of our will) is the same as faith (an empowerment of God by means of the word)
If I could create reality by believing something, I would believe there is the tastiest lasagne sitting before me right now as I'm very hungry so I'm off to get lunch.
It seems to me you are one who, like @Cameron143, think believing (an act of our will) is the same as faith (an empowerment of God by means of the word)
If I could create reality by believing something, I would believe there is the tastiest lasagne sitting before me right now as I'm very hungry so I'm off to get lunch.
Salvation has always been by grace through faith. What's that got to do with God's command to believe His word or die?
It seems to me you are one who, like @Cameron143, think believing (an act of our will) is the same as faith (an empowerment of God by means of the word)
If I could create reality by believing something, I would believe there is the tastiest lasagne sitting before me right now as I'm very hungry so I'm off to get lunch.
It seems to me you are one who, like @Cameron143, think believing (an act of our will) is the same as faith (an empowerment of God by means of the word)
If I could create reality by believing something, I would believe there is the tastiest lasagne sitting before me right now as I'm very hungry so I'm off to get lunch.
2 Timothy 1 verse 9~ He has saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time began. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5~ He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11~ In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will.
Maybe WE'RE not getting it. Maybe we missed some commandment about socks and the days to wear them, what color...or not even any at all.
Matt.9:28
Matt.21:25
Matt.21:32
Mk.1:15
Mk.5:36
Mk.9:23
Mk.11:31
Mk.16:11
Mk.16:14
Lk.1:20
Lk.1:45
Lk.8:50
Jn.1:12
Jn.2:11
Jn.3:12
Jn.3:18
Jn.3:36
Should I keep going? What do all these and many, many other verses all have in common? The onus to believe is placed fair and square on our shoulders. It is not God's responsibility for you believing. He supplies the power (grace) to overcome the barrier of sin and He supplies the truth but you are responsible for your own volitional response, believe or don't believe.
If people won't take responsibility for their own willfulness, why should the Lord entrust them with His greatest treasure, His word, Christ is the word.
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We simply believe something. If I say God is good, you either believe the statement or not. You don't choose to believe or not believe by an act of volition. The belief is present or it isn't.
The same thing is true when the gospel is shared. We hear it and either believe or do not believe. We don't say to ourselves...should I believe or not? What choice should I make? I choose...
We are commanded to believe, but no where does scripture say we are to choose to believe. Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.
The same thing is true when the gospel is shared. We hear it and either believe or do not believe. We don't say to ourselves...should I believe or not? What choice should I make? I choose...
We are commanded to believe, but no where does scripture say we are to choose to believe. Belief doesn't come through an act of our will. It comes through an act of God...by the word of God. We believe as a result of what God does.
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Commanded to believe while Scripture attests that the mind governed by the flesh is
hostile to God, because it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7
Despite those who say no verses speak to man's inability. What book are they reading?
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8
hostile to God, because it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7
Despite those who say no verses speak to man's inability. What book are they reading?
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." John 6 verse 44 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2 verse 14 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Romans 8 verse 7-8
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Good post!
Love the parallelism between receive and believe in John1:12. @cv5 has been explaining what "receive" means - to actively take something - human action just like believing - in response to God graciously giving.
Love the parallelism between believing and obeying in John3:36. Whether some like it or not, believing God is obeying God and, no, obedience is not a work, but the proper response to God from a volitional creature created by God. In part, when we get better and better at volitional obedience, He calls it love for Him and faith/obedience/love are all woven together.
Keep up the work with Scripture! Most of those who do actually oppose it will suddenly be ignoring what you say, while others of us will revel in it.
Love the parallelism between receive and believe in John1:12. @cv5 has been explaining what "receive" means - to actively take something - human action just like believing - in response to God graciously giving.
Love the parallelism between believing and obeying in John3:36. Whether some like it or not, believing God is obeying God and, no, obedience is not a work, but the proper response to God from a volitional creature created by God. In part, when we get better and better at volitional obedience, He calls it love for Him and faith/obedience/love are all woven together.
Keep up the work with Scripture! Most of those who do actually oppose it will suddenly be ignoring what you say, while others of us will revel in it.
The sons of Jacob, the Land and Nation. was a direct result of the abrahamic covenant
Gen 12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
This nation is Israel
what land was given?
Gen 15:
18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
And finally. How long is this covenant for. when will it end (will it end)
Gen 17:
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
So the promise of the land and nation was given (gen 12) we are given the boundaries (gen 15) and we are told how long (forever or everlasting) Gen 17
Gen 12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:
“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
This nation is Israel
what land was given?
Gen 15:
18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
And finally. How long is this covenant for. when will it end (will it end)
Gen 17:
8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
So the promise of the land and nation was given (gen 12) we are given the boundaries (gen 15) and we are told how long (forever or everlasting) Gen 17
Yet many, like me, understand commands as made to the reasoning and volition of man. And when we are presented with a command, we certainly do consider it, assess it and its source, decide and choose whether or not to obey it, and then reject it or obey it accordingly.
And we see the gracious act of gracious merciful loving God being His provision of His Word - Son and writing - with His power inherent in it and His convincing Spirit being active in the world and His human messengers He sends being there at interesting times and churches on almost every corner in some areas of the world and His Book being the greatest selling book of record and...
Since you and I had such a wonderful exchange of thoughts over the past few days, I was thinking about it last evening and how you seem similar to others I have spoken to over the years. You seem, and please see this word "seem", to have had some form of experience that IMO may be causing you to elevate experience and read it into the Text. Maybe that experience is as simple as not believing one moment and all of a sudden believing. But isn't this how it works? Certainly, there's a transition point in a change of thinking, whether methodical or seemingly abrupt.
What you say about belief is very philosophical and has been discussed in philosophy for ages. It's also part of theology especially in certain groups who posit that belief is completely passive. You seem to believe this.
Yet the verb "believe" is active. The action is done by the subject. To make it passive some of the proponents of passive believing will take the word back to its root which means to persuade or be persuaded and will posit that we believe (active) because we are persuaded (passive). I've studied this and spoken with some of these thinkers and read their articles and was close to and watched some of the debating within the ranks. I remain unconvinced of their theory for many reasons. But it is an interesting one.
Back to the active concept of belief. I just responded to a good post by @sawdust which listed many "believe" verses. I highlighted John1:12 which makes receiving Christ parallel to believing in Him. @cv5 has posted several times from Strong's what receiving means. It's another active verb used in parallel to the active word "believe". It means to actively take something which elaborates to actively believe something.
That same post listed John3:36 which parallels believing and obeying, both active verbs. Whether or not we like it due to our theology, God seems clearly to say belief is obedience.
The Scriptural evidence for active belief is extensive. We either have to see these actions as voluntary or involuntary. I'll leave the one system that posits more of an involuntary notion unnamed so as not to offend you. Some will modify that notion somewhat with the philosophical theory of compatibilism which is another discussion in itself.
Lastly for now, if we were able to have you go through the path that led you to believe, I'm pretty certain we would identify many, many decisions and choices you made to get you to that point which I think @HeIsHere described as "poof". I've had philosophical, logical, theological discussions about this concept. The reasonable conclusion was mostly that volition was involved in belief along the line of coming to belief though there certainly are holdouts.
And we see the gracious act of gracious merciful loving God being His provision of His Word - Son and writing - with His power inherent in it and His convincing Spirit being active in the world and His human messengers He sends being there at interesting times and churches on almost every corner in some areas of the world and His Book being the greatest selling book of record and...
Since you and I had such a wonderful exchange of thoughts over the past few days, I was thinking about it last evening and how you seem similar to others I have spoken to over the years. You seem, and please see this word "seem", to have had some form of experience that IMO may be causing you to elevate experience and read it into the Text. Maybe that experience is as simple as not believing one moment and all of a sudden believing. But isn't this how it works? Certainly, there's a transition point in a change of thinking, whether methodical or seemingly abrupt.
What you say about belief is very philosophical and has been discussed in philosophy for ages. It's also part of theology especially in certain groups who posit that belief is completely passive. You seem to believe this.
Yet the verb "believe" is active. The action is done by the subject. To make it passive some of the proponents of passive believing will take the word back to its root which means to persuade or be persuaded and will posit that we believe (active) because we are persuaded (passive). I've studied this and spoken with some of these thinkers and read their articles and was close to and watched some of the debating within the ranks. I remain unconvinced of their theory for many reasons. But it is an interesting one.
Back to the active concept of belief. I just responded to a good post by @sawdust which listed many "believe" verses. I highlighted John1:12 which makes receiving Christ parallel to believing in Him. @cv5 has posted several times from Strong's what receiving means. It's another active verb used in parallel to the active word "believe". It means to actively take something which elaborates to actively believe something.
That same post listed John3:36 which parallels believing and obeying, both active verbs. Whether or not we like it due to our theology, God seems clearly to say belief is obedience.
The Scriptural evidence for active belief is extensive. We either have to see these actions as voluntary or involuntary. I'll leave the one system that posits more of an involuntary notion unnamed so as not to offend you. Some will modify that notion somewhat with the philosophical theory of compatibilism which is another discussion in itself.
Lastly for now, if we were able to have you go through the path that led you to believe, I'm pretty certain we would identify many, many decisions and choices you made to get you to that point which I think @HeIsHere described as "poof". I've had philosophical, logical, theological discussions about this concept. The reasonable conclusion was mostly that volition was involved in belief along the line of coming to belief though there certainly are holdouts.
Whether some like it or not Romans 8:7 attests that the mind governed by the flesh is
hostile to God, because it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7
I made it a little bigger because some people seem to be having quite a bit of difficulty seeing it.
Though really it is one of those Scriptural truths that people hate along with
so many others that are routinely ignored, contradicted, and outright denied.
hostile to God, because it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Romans 8:7
I made it a little bigger because some people seem to be having quite a bit of difficulty seeing it.
Though really it is one of those Scriptural truths that people hate along with
so many others that are routinely ignored, contradicted, and outright denied.