Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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You like to use and discuss Scripture. As I recall. @Cameron143 essentially has an interpretation that is very similar to if not the same as the TULIP "T". God needs to fix unregenerate man before he can believe. Which is why @Kroogz I think may be applying in essence a walk & quack like a duck analogy.
If you desire, look beginning here and the next 5 or so pages for a fairly substantive discussion we had. There were a few main sections of Scripture Cam as I recall found important. One was Romans 8 which was somewhat interesting. Of course, 1Cor2:14 is also involved.
Like most of these discussions they end up nowhere but in continued disagreement.
If you desire, look beginning here and the next 5 or so pages for a fairly substantive discussion we had. There were a few main sections of Scripture Cam as I recall found important. One was Romans 8 which was somewhat interesting. Of course, 1Cor2:14 is also involved.
Like most of these discussions they end up nowhere but in continued disagreement.
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Yep just a circle depending on who engages really there’s also some people here who usually have good edification in what they say but I think disagreement on doctrine has been an issue for a very long time
yes I’ve discussed for a couple years with Cameron and at some point we began sort of saying two different things but one of the things I believe is in no one else’s judge between them and Jesus ( I’m saying that about me and not anyone else ) so I basically just come here to discuss and try to let others share thier thoughts even when I don’t agree. There’s a few things Cameron and I disagree on but also some things we do
I don’t think anyone’s opinion of whether or not we have free Will actually is going to mean much in the end . The truth is we should listen carefully to Jesus and believe that what he is saying is true because he is the one who saves us and the ne who ultimately will judge us based on his word in the gospel
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48 KJV
but on the other hand
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51
If we don’t have the ability to choose Gods word doesn’t make any sense at all he’s just been wasting all his words telling us we need to choose life and not death ……obviously it’s part of our design to choose between good and evil or at least the after market corruption in our design
yes I’ve discussed for a couple years with Cameron and at some point we began sort of saying two different things but one of the things I believe is in no one else’s judge between them and Jesus ( I’m saying that about me and not anyone else ) so I basically just come here to discuss and try to let others share thier thoughts even when I don’t agree. There’s a few things Cameron and I disagree on but also some things we do
I don’t think anyone’s opinion of whether or not we have free Will actually is going to mean much in the end . The truth is we should listen carefully to Jesus and believe that what he is saying is true because he is the one who saves us and the ne who ultimately will judge us based on his word in the gospel
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
John 12:48 KJV
but on the other hand
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
John 8:51
If we don’t have the ability to choose Gods word doesn’t make any sense at all he’s just been wasting all his words telling us we need to choose life and not death ……obviously it’s part of our design to choose between good and evil or at least the after market corruption in our design
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You have no right to determine what I believe,
and you cannot quote me saying either God or man determines fate.
What I DO say is that "God has determined to saved sinners who cooperate with His POS = satisfy His requirement/condition for salvation = accept His grace through faith = reflect His love = seek Him = invite Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below
Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation
[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]
From Matthew
33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)
From Luke
and you cannot quote me saying either God or man determines fate.
What I DO say is that "God has determined to saved sinners who cooperate with His POS = satisfy His requirement/condition for salvation = accept His grace through faith = reflect His love = seek Him = invite Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below
Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation
[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]
From Matthew
- Repent (4:17, F),
- Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
- Be righteous (5:20, W)
- Love your enemies (5:44, W)
- Serve God (6:24&33, W)
- Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
- Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
- Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
- Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
- Love Jesus (10:37, F)
- Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
- Have no doubt (11:6, F)
- Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
- Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
- Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
- Understand (13:23, F)
- Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
- Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
- Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
- Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
- Forgive others (18:35, W)
- Give to the poor (19:21, W)
- Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
- Yield fruit (21:43, W)
- Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
- Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
- Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
- Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
- Be ready (24:44, F&W)
- Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
- Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
- Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)
From Luke
- Be hated (6:22-23, W)
- Lend (6:35, W)
- Judge not (6:37, W)
- Invite the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
- Use wealth wisely (16:9, W)
- Stand firm (21:19, F)
- Be born again (3:3&6, F)
- Come to the light (3:21, F)
- Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
- Drink living water (4:14, F)
- Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
- Do right (5:29, W)
- Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
- Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
- Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
- Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
- Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
- Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
- Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
- Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
- Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
- Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
- Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
- Call on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
- Repent and be baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
- Believe in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
- Believe in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
- Repent and turn to God (26:20, F)
- Have faith (1:17, F)
- Persist in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
- Obey the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
- Have faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
- Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
- Call on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)
- Believe (1:21, F)
- Hold firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)
- Repent (7:10, F)
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“So, yes, man does choose to present himself guilty and without excuse.”
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
Maybe some people can’t hear the word ? It seems like it sometimes
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1 John 1:8-10 KJV
Maybe some people can’t hear the word ? It seems like it sometimes
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You have no right to determine what I believe,
and you cannot quote me saying either God or man determines fate.
What I DO say is that "God has determined to saved sinners who cooperate with His POS = satisfy His requirement/condition for salvation = accept His grace through faith = reflect His love = seek Him = invite Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below
Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation
[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]
From Matthew
33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)
From Luke
and you cannot quote me saying either God or man determines fate.
What I DO say is that "God has determined to saved sinners who cooperate with His POS = satisfy His requirement/condition for salvation = accept His grace through faith = reflect His love = seek Him = invite Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below
Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation
[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]
From Matthew
- Repent (4:17, F),
- Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
- Be righteous (5:20, W)
- Love your enemies (5:44, W)
- Serve God (6:24&33, W)
- Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
- Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
- Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
- Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
- Love Jesus (10:37, F)
- Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
- Have no doubt (11:6, F)
- Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
- Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
- Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
- Understand (13:23, F)
- Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
- Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
- Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
- Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
- Forgive others (18:35, W)
- Give to the poor (19:21, W)
- Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
- Yield fruit (21:43, W)
- Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
- Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
- Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
- Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
- Be ready (24:44, F&W)
- Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
- Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
- Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)
From Luke
- Be hated (6:22-23, W)
- Lend (6:35, W)
- Judge not (6:37, W)
- Invite the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
- Use wealth wisely (16:9, W)
- Stand firm (21:19, F)
- Be born again (3:3&6, F)
- Come to the light (3:21, F)
- Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
- Drink living water (4:14, F)
- Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
- Do right (5:29, W)
- Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
- Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
- Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
- Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
- Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
- Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
- Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
- Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
- Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
- Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
- Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
- Call on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
- Repent and be baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
- Believe in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
- Believe in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
- Repent and turn to God (26:20, F)
- Have faith (1:17, F)
- Persist in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
- Obey the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
- Have faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
- Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
- Call on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)
- Believe (1:21, F)
- Hold firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)
- Repent (7:10, F)
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It seems to me that the entire OT tells a story about God's chosen people. Why did He choose them and not others? Does this not mean that He only chose some, not all? Were they better in some way? Did He not take them as a people showing favoritism over others?
Just asking.....................
Just asking.....................
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No, God calls that:
cooperation with His POS = satisfing His requirement/condition for salvation = accepting His grace through faith = reflecting His love = seeking Him = inviting Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below
From Matthew
33. Accepting the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believing the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receiving baptism (16:16, W)
From Luke
cooperation with His POS = satisfing His requirement/condition for salvation = accepting His grace through faith = reflecting His love = seeking Him = inviting Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below
From Matthew
- Repenting (4:17, F),
- Recognizing one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
- Being righteous (5:20, W)
- Loving your enemies (5:44, W)
- Serving God (6:24&33, W)
- Entering the narrow gate (7:13, F)
- Doing God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
- Hearing and acting (7:24, F&W)
- Confessing Jesus (10:32, W)
- Loving Jesus (10:37, F)
- Giving one' life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
- Having no doubt (11:6, F)
- Coming to Jesus (11:28, F)
- Learning from Jesus (11:29, W)
- Being for Jesus (12:30, F)
- Understanding (13:23, F)
- Being good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
- Valuing salvation (13:44-46, F)
- Believing Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
- Becoming humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
- Forgiving others (18:35, W)
- Giving to the poor (19:21, W)
- Following Jesus (19:21&29, F)
- Yielding fruit (21:43, W)
- Dressing appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
- Loving God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
- Holding out until the end (24:13, F)
- Keeping awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
- Being ready (24:44, F&W)
- Being trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
- Helping Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
- Being righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
33. Accepting the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believing the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receiving baptism (16:16, W)
From Luke
- Being hated (6:22-23, W)
- Lending (6:35, W)
- Judging not (6:37, W)
- Inviting the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
- Using wealth wisely (16:9, W)
- Standing firm (21:19, F)
- Being born again (3:3&6, F)
- Coming to the light (3:21, F)
- Obeying the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
- Drinking living water (4:14, F)
- Heeding Jesus (5:24, W)
- Doing right (5:29, W)
- Working for the food of life (6:27, W)
- Partaking of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
- Eating the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
- Dwelling within the truth (8:31&35, W)
- Hating self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
- Accepting Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
- Following Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
- Dwelling in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
- Heeding his command (15:10-12, F)
- Knowing God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
- Believing Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
- Calling on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
- Repenting and being baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
- Believing in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
- Believing in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
- Repenting and turning to God (26:20, F)
- Having faith (1:17, F)
- Persisting in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
- Obeying the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
- Having faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
- Confessing Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
- Calling on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)
- Believing (1:21, F)
- Holding firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)
- Repenting (7:10, F)
God chose Israel to provide Messiah for all potentially and actually if they do what I just posted to Cameron in #1,936.
In the OT the clearest statement probably is Deut. 30:19.
However, God's creation and conscience aka general revelation was sufficient indication of His moral will to make humanity accountable and able to be saved per Paul in Romans:
TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and love, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [Rom. 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and moral nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20). Apparently, creation combined with conscience or moral sense (Rom. 2:14-16) that manifests a moral Authority TOP #23)–and combined with OT law for the Jew (TOP #22)–serves as a provisional or proto-gospel (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8), which is the revelational basis for divine salvation and judgment (TOP #24-26 & 281).
TOP #23: For Gentiles, their moral consciences will serve as the equivalent of the Mosaic Law for divine judgment. [Rom. 2:12-16] Sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.
TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [Rom. 2:9-13&16] Verse 11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).
Because God does not show favoritism, we know that His judgment is just/righteous.
In the OT the clearest statement probably is Deut. 30:19.
However, God's creation and conscience aka general revelation was sufficient indication of His moral will to make humanity accountable and able to be saved per Paul in Romans:
TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and love, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [Rom. 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and moral nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20). Apparently, creation combined with conscience or moral sense (Rom. 2:14-16) that manifests a moral Authority TOP #23)–and combined with OT law for the Jew (TOP #22)–serves as a provisional or proto-gospel (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8), which is the revelational basis for divine salvation and judgment (TOP #24-26 & 281).
TOP #23: For Gentiles, their moral consciences will serve as the equivalent of the Mosaic Law for divine judgment. [Rom. 2:12-16] Sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.
TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [Rom. 2:9-13&16] Verse 11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).
Because God does not show favoritism, we know that His judgment is just/righteous.
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