Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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To add to my earlier statements I will say that man’s free will given by God is not a license to sin. Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:14 that the love of Christ compels or constrains him. We exercise our Fred will to choose Jesus and to honor him by choosing by our free will to serve him.
I have a question for you, Avery: Is your will free from committing sin?
 

Rufus

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No. You say man through volition is the final arbiter of salvation. Man determines his own fate.
Not only that but God is a passive spectator and potential savior since the only thing he brings to the table of salvation are opportunities for men to save themselves.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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I have discussed those things with Cameron still am not really clear on his position but could be my fault I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed lol if you get my meaning
You like to use and discuss Scripture. As I recall. @Cameron143 essentially has an interpretation that is very similar to if not the same as the TULIP "T". God needs to fix unregenerate man before he can believe. Which is why @Kroogz I think may be applying in essence a walk & quack like a duck analogy.

If you desire, look beginning here and the next 5 or so pages for a fairly substantive discussion we had. There were a few main sections of Scripture Cam as I recall found important. One was Romans 8 which was somewhat interesting. Of course, 1Cor2:14 is also involved.

Like most of these discussions they end up nowhere but in continued disagreement.
 

Rufus

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So you don't personally believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? @Cameron143 does not have an intimate, personal faith and relationship in the Lord Jesus Christ.

God believes for you?

How does an intimate personal faith in The Lord Jesus Christ take away His Glory? Seems to only add to it IMO.
Did Cameron say that? Why couldn't God's gift of faith to his elect produce the necessary faith in him?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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You like to use and discuss Scripture. As I recall. @Cameron143 essentially has an interpretation that is very similar to if not the same as the TULIP "T". God needs to fix unregenerate man before he can believe. Which is why @Kroogz I think may be applying in essence a walk & quack like a duck analogy.

If you desire, look beginning here and the next 5 or so pages for a fairly substantive discussion we had. There were a few main sections of Scripture Cam as I recall found important. One was Romans 8 which was somewhat interesting. Of course, 1Cor2:14 is also involved.

Like most of these discussions they end up nowhere but in continued disagreement.
Yep just a circle depending on who engages really there’s also some people here who usually have good edification in what they say but I think disagreement on doctrine has been an issue for a very long time

yes I’ve discussed for a couple years with Cameron and at some point we began sort of saying two different things but one of the things I believe is in no one else’s judge between them and Jesus ( I’m saying that about me and not anyone else ) so I basically just come here to discuss and try to let others share thier thoughts even when I don’t agree. There’s a few things Cameron and I disagree on but also some things we do

I don’t think anyone’s opinion of whether or not we have free Will actually is going to mean much in the end . The truth is we should listen carefully to Jesus and believe that what he is saying is true because he is the one who saves us and the ne who ultimately will judge us based on his word in the gospel

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but on the other hand

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

If we don’t have the ability to choose Gods word doesn’t make any sense at all he’s just been wasting all his words telling us we need to choose life and not death ……obviously it’s part of our design to choose between good and evil or at least the after market corruption in our design
 

Cameron143

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Isn't the one who judges in finality the final arbiter?

You rejected Me - I judge you guilty.
God indeed remains Judge, but the choice does not rest with Him in your scenario. So God remains just, but He isn't the Justifier unless man volitionally allows Him to be.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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I don’t think anyone’s opinion of whether or not we have free Will actually is going to mean much in the end . The truth is we should listen carefully to Jesus and believe that what he is saying is true because he is the one who saves us and the ne who ultimately will judge us based on his word in the gospel
If we don’t have the ability to choose Gods word doesn’t make any sense at all he’s just been wasting all his words telling us we need to choose life and not death ……obviously it’s part of our design to choose between good and evil or at least the flaw in our design
Just highlighting a few statements.

Thanks for the input.
 

studier

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Apr 18, 2024
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God indeed remains Judge, but the choice does not rest with Him in your scenario. So God remains just, but He isn't the Justifier unless man volitionally allows Him to be.
Justification is there for all to choose to take hold of or not to.

So, yes, man does choose to present himself guilty and without excuse.

Final arbiter - final chooser.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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No. You say man through volition is the final arbiter of salvation. Man determines his own fate.
You have no right to determine what I believe,
and you cannot quote me saying either God or man determines fate.
What I DO say is that "God has determined to saved sinners who cooperate with His POS = satisfy His requirement/condition for salvation = accept His grace through faith = reflect His love = seek Him = invite Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below:)

Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation

[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]

From Matthew
  1. Repent (4:17, F),
  2. Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
  3. Be righteous (5:20, W)
  4. Love your enemies (5:44, W)
  5. Serve God (6:24&33, W)
  6. Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
  7. Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
  8. Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
  9. Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
  10. Love Jesus (10:37, F)
  11. Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
  12. Have no doubt (11:6, F)
  13. Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
  14. Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
  15. Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
  16. Understand (13:23, F)
  17. Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
  18. Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
  19. Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
  20. Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
  21. Forgive others (18:35, W)
  22. Give to the poor (19:21, W)
  23. Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
  24. Yield fruit (21:43, W)
  25. Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
  26. Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
  27. Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
  28. Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
  29. Be ready (24:44, F&W)
  30. Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
  31. Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
  32. Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
More from Mark

33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)

From Luke
  1. Be hated (6:22-23, W)
  2. Lend (6:35, W)
  3. Judge not (6:37, W)
  4. Invite the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
  5. Use wealth wisely (16:9, W)
  6. Stand firm (21:19, F)
From John
  1. Be born again (3:3&6, F)
  2. Come to the light (3:21, F)
  3. Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
  4. Drink living water (4:14, F)
  5. Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
  6. Do right (5:29, W)
  7. Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
  8. Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
  9. Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
  10. Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
  11. Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
  12. Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
  13. Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
  14. Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
  15. Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
  16. Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
  17. Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
From Acts
  1. Call on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
  2. Repent and be baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
  3. Believe in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
  4. Believe in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
  5. Repent and turn to God (26:20, F)
From Romans
  1. Have faith (1:17, F)
  2. Persist in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
  3. Obey the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
  4. Have faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
  5. Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
  6. Call on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)
From 1 Corinthians
  1. Believe (1:21, F)
  2. Hold firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)
From 2 Corinthians
  1. Repent (7:10, F)
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Justification is there for all to choose to take hold of or not to.

So, yes, man does choose to present himself guilty and without excuse.

Final arbiter - final chooser.
“So, yes, man does choose to present himself guilty and without excuse.”

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins,

he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:8-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Maybe some people can’t hear the word ? It seems like it sometimes
 

Cameron143

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Justification is there for all to choose to take hold of or not to.

So, yes, man does choose to present himself guilty and without excuse.

Final arbiter - final chooser.
Not just present himself guilty, but also presents himself justified. God simply rubber stamps men's choices.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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You have no right to determine what I believe,
and you cannot quote me saying either God or man determines fate.
What I DO say is that "God has determined to saved sinners who cooperate with His POS = satisfy His requirement/condition for salvation = accept His grace through faith = reflect His love = seek Him = invite Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below:)

Scriptures on God’s Requirement for Salvation

[stated in terms of faith (F) and works (W)]

From Matthew
  1. Repent (4:17, F),
  2. Recognize one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
  3. Be righteous (5:20, W)
  4. Love your enemies (5:44, W)
  5. Serve God (6:24&33, W)
  6. Enter the narrow gate (7:13, F)
  7. Do God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
  8. Hear and act (7:24, F&W)
  9. Confess Jesus (10:32, W)
  10. Love Jesus (10:37, F)
  11. Give life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
  12. Have no doubt (11:6, F)
  13. Come to Jesus (11:28, F)
  14. Learn from Jesus (11:29, W)
  15. Be for Jesus (12:30, F)
  16. Understand (13:23, F)
  17. Be good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
  18. Value salvation (13:44-46, F)
  19. Believe Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
  20. Become humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
  21. Forgive others (18:35, W)
  22. Give to the poor (19:21, W)
  23. Follow Jesus (19:21&29, F)
  24. Yield fruit (21:43, W)
  25. Dress appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
  26. Love God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
  27. Hold out until the end (24:13, F)
  28. Keep awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
  29. Be ready (24:44, F&W)
  30. Be trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
  31. Help Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
  32. Be righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
More from Mark

33. Accept the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believe the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receive baptism (16:16, W)

From Luke
  1. Be hated (6:22-23, W)
  2. Lend (6:35, W)
  3. Judge not (6:37, W)
  4. Invite the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
  5. Use wealth wisely (16:9, W)
  6. Stand firm (21:19, F)
From John
  1. Be born again (3:3&6, F)
  2. Come to the light (3:21, F)
  3. Obey the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
  4. Drink living water (4:14, F)
  5. Heed Jesus (5:24, W)
  6. Do right (5:29, W)
  7. Work for the food of life (6:27, W)
  8. Partake of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
  9. Eat the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
  10. Dwell within the truth (8:31&35, W)
  11. Hate self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
  12. Accept Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
  13. Follow Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
  14. Dwell in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
  15. Heed his command (15:10-12, F)
  16. Know God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
  17. Believe Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
From Acts
  1. Call on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
  2. Repent and be baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
  3. Believe in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
  4. Believe in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
  5. Repent and turn to God (26:20, F)
From Romans
  1. Have faith (1:17, F)
  2. Persist in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
  3. Obey the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
  4. Have faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
  5. Confess Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
  6. Call on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)
From 1 Corinthians
  1. Believe (1:21, F)
  2. Hold firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)
From 2 Corinthians
  1. Repent (7:10, F)
Like I said, man determines his own fate. God has done His part, and man will either do his part and choose God's grace or refuse it. That's self determination.
 

BillyBob

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Dec 20, 2023
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No, we volitionists realize that viewing God as desiring to elect only some contradicts Scripture
teaching that God loves all and does not show favoritism.
It seems to me that the entire OT tells a story about God's chosen people. Why did He choose them and not others? Does this not mean that He only chose some, not all? Were they better in some way? Did He not take them as a people showing favoritism over others?
Just asking.....................
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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It seems to me that the entire OT tells a story about God's chosen people. Why did He choose them and not others? Does this not mean that He only chose some, not all? Were they better in some way? Did He not take them as a people showing favoritism over others?
Just asking.....................
God also commanded Moshe should any stranger just decide and choose to join to accept them and allow them to join.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Like I said, man determines his own fate. God has done His part, and man will either do his part and choose God's grace or refuse it. That's self determination.
No, God calls that:

cooperation with His POS = satisfing His requirement/condition for salvation = accepting His grace through faith = reflecting His love = seeking Him = inviting Jesus into their heart = etc.". (See below:)

From Matthew
  1. Repenting (4:17, F),
  2. Recognizing one’s spiritual poverty (5:3, F)
  3. Being righteous (5:20, W)
  4. Loving your enemies (5:44, W)
  5. Serving God (6:24&33, W)
  6. Entering the narrow gate (7:13, F)
  7. Doing God’s will (7:21 & 12:50, F&W)
  8. Hearing and acting (7:24, F&W)
  9. Confessing Jesus (10:32, W)
  10. Loving Jesus (10:37, F)
  11. Giving one' life to Jesus (10:39& 16:24-25, F)
  12. Having no doubt (11:6, F)
  13. Coming to Jesus (11:28, F)
  14. Learning from Jesus (11:29, W)
  15. Being for Jesus (12:30, F)
  16. Understanding (13:23, F)
  17. Being good (5:48 & 13:38,43,49, W)
  18. Valuing salvation (13:44-46, F)
  19. Believing Jesus (16:16& 21:32, F)
  20. Becoming humble (18:3-4 & 19:14, W)
  21. Forgiving others (18:35, W)
  22. Giving to the poor (19:21, W)
  23. Following Jesus (19:21&29, F)
  24. Yielding fruit (21:43, W)
  25. Dressing appropriately (22:11-14, cf. RV 16:15, W)
  26. Loving God, neighbor & self (22:37-40, W)
  27. Holding out until the end (24:13, F)
  28. Keeping awake (24:42 & 25:13, F)
  29. Being ready (24:44, F&W)
  30. Being trustworthy and useful (25:21&30, F&W)
  31. Helping Jesus’ brothers (25:34-40, W)
  32. Being righteous/do right (25:46, F&W)
More from Mark

33. Accepting the kingdom (10:15, F)
34. Believing the Gospel (16:16, F)
35. Receiving baptism (16:16, W)

From Luke
  1. Being hated (6:22-23, W)
  2. Lending (6:35, W)
  3. Judging not (6:37, W)
  4. Inviting the poor to your party (14:13-14, W)
  5. Using wealth wisely (16:9, W)
  6. Standing firm (21:19, F)
From John
  1. Being born again (3:3&6, F)
  2. Coming to the light (3:21, F)
  3. Obeying the Son (8:51 & 14:15, W)
  4. Drinking living water (4:14, F)
  5. Heeding Jesus (5:24, W)
  6. Doing right (5:29, W)
  7. Working for the food of life (6:27, W)
  8. Partaking of the bread of life (6:33-35&51, F)
  9. Eating the flesh and drink the blood of X (6:54, F)
  10. Dwelling within the truth (8:31&35, W)
  11. Hating self; serve Jesus (12:25-26, W)
  12. Accepting Jesus’ words (12:47, F)
  13. Following Jesus’ example (13:15-17, W)
  14. Dwelling in Jesus and in love (15:5-10, F&W)
  15. Heeding his command (15:10-12, F)
  16. Knowing God and Jesus Christ (17:3, F)
  17. Believing Jesus is Christ/Son (20:31, F)
From Acts
  1. Calling on the name of the Lord (2:21, F)
  2. Repenting and being baptized (2:38, cf.3:19, F&W)
  3. Believing in Jesus (10:43, cf. 13:39&48, F)
  4. Believing in the Lord Jesus (16:31, cf. 18:8, F)
  5. Repenting and turning to God (26:20, F)
From Romans
  1. Having faith (1:17, F)
  2. Persisting in doing good (2:7&10, cf.3:12, W)
  3. Obeying the law (2:13, cf. 3:20, W)
  4. Having faith in Jesus Christ (3:22, 26&28&5:1, F)
  5. Confessing Jesus as resurrected Lord (10:9, F&W)
  6. Calling on the name of the Lord (10:13, F)
From 1 Corinthians
  1. Believing (1:21, F)
  2. Holding firmly to the gospel (15:2, F)
From 2 Corinthians
  1. Repenting (7:10, F)
 

BillyBob

Well-known member
Dec 20, 2023
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Texas
God also commanded Moshe should any stranger just decide and choose to join to accept them and allow them to join.
And the same thing applies today! We are not to look at someone and say of them that they do not and will never belong to God. That is not our decision to make. We are not the judge, only God knows those who belong to Him. That is why His word is to go throughout the world.
 

lrs68

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Dec 30, 2024
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And the same thing applies today! We are not to look at someone and say of them that they do not and will never belong to God. That is not our decision to make. We are not the judge, only God knows those who belong to Him. That is why His word is to go throughout the world.
But God said those people choose to join. So are you saying for some people they can do the same, to choose?
 
Oct 19, 2024
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It seems to me that the entire OT tells a story about God's chosen people. Why did He choose them and not others? Does this not mean that He only chose some, not all? Were they better in some way? Did He not take them as a people showing favoritism over others?
Just asking.....................
God chose Israel to provide Messiah for all potentially and actually if they do what I just posted to Cameron in #1,936.
In the OT the clearest statement probably is Deut. 30:19.

However, God's creation and conscience aka general revelation was sufficient indication of His moral will to make humanity accountable and able to be saved per Paul in Romans:

TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and love, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [Rom. 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and moral nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20). Apparently, creation combined with conscience or moral sense (Rom. 2:14-16) that manifests a moral Authority TOP #23)–and combined with OT law for the Jew (TOP #22)–serves as a provisional or proto-gospel (Col. 1:23, Rom. 10:13-18, Gal. 3:8), which is the revelational basis for divine salvation and judgment (TOP #24-26 & 281).

TOP #23: For Gentiles, their moral consciences will serve as the equivalent of the Mosaic Law for divine judgment. [Rom. 2:12-16] Sinful souls have a conscience or awareness of “the requirements of the law”, which may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God’s power and moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience (called natural revelation), thus those unfamiliar with God’s Word in Scripture have no good reason for resisting divine leading and choosing atheism/evil.

TOP #22: For Jews, obeying the Mosaic Law will serve as the basis of divine judgment. [Rom. 2:9-13&16] Verse 11 teaches that “God does not show favoritism” (cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).

Because God does not show favoritism, we know that His judgment is just/righteous.