Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

[cv5]

R

I say all glory goes to God, but baked into the free will theology is their self-exalting vanity.

About as vain and self-exalting as a starving man gratefully taking a piece of bread from the kind soul who offers it.
Or as vain and self-exalting as a kid dying of cancer getting free life saving treatment at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

Get a grip on reality lady.

 

[BillyBob]

The "if" does indeed indicate a condition, and it also implies that they are able to satisfy that condition,
so God is indeed not to blame for their unwillingness to do so.

If I tell you “If you reach up and touch the moon, then I will give you $100”, does that imply that you are able to do it?

 

[Rufus]

Diversion. Just shows you're loosing the argument at hand.

Not interested.

Also you should stop lying about previous discussions. It's really not a good thing to be functioning without shame.

So, you cannot answer the question about whether or not God restrains evil in this world? Not surprised. You could not answer the rhetorical question in Jer 13:23 with a simple one word "yes" or "no" answer either. This clearly demonstrates the utter spiritual impoverishment to your false gospel of man's efficacious "freewill".

But fear not! Your bosom buddy GWH has you beat. Stay tuned....until I find his recent post again.

 

[sawdust]

A person must be saved from the slavery of sin, to do righteousness, to become a servant of righteousness Rom 6:18,20

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

And both being made free from sin and becoming servants of righteousness are in the passive voice in the original, the person was acted upon, they received the action, they didn't act themselves to be made free or to become a servant of righteousness.

We're not talking about becoming a slave of righteousness, you need to be in a saved state for that to happen. We are talking about hearing the Gospel so one can choose of their own free will to accept or reject the truth of God. Man's will is bound to sin which is why God meets us with grace so we can hear the truth for ourselves and be free to respond without manipulation or coercion or any other interference. Grace isn't simply God being a nice guy, it is real power that is given in grace. This is why grace is given to the humble but God resists the proud, the arrogant always abuse power. Jm.4:6

You have the cart before the horse. You have a person saved (regenerated) and then have them hear the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation, not regeneration. Rom.1:16

 

[GWH]

If I tell you “If you reach up and touch the moon, then I will give you $100”, does that imply that you are able to do it?

No, but every normal adult is able to seek salvation and be saved by God per Scripture,
which I assume you know.

Can God create a moon too big for him to move?

 

[GWH]

We're not talking about becoming a slave of righteousness, you need to be in a saved state for that to happen. We are talking about hearing the Gospel so one can choose of their own free will to accept or reject the truth of God. Man's will is bound to sin which is why God meets us with grace so we can hear the truth for ourselves and be free to respond without manipulation or coercion or any other interference. Grace isn't simply God being a nice guy, it is real power that is given in grace. This is why grace is given to the humble but God resists the proud, the arrogant always abuse power. Jm.4:6

You have the cart before the horse. You have a person saved (regenerated) and then have them hear the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation, not regeneration. Rom.1:16

Salvation = regeneration, which precedes good works (Eph. 2:8-10).

 

[BillyBob]

No, but every normal adult is able to seek salvation and be saved by God per Scripture,
which I assume you know.

I would have to say no I do not agree!
I would say that every normal adult is invited, which in no way makes them able!
Just as @Rufus posted earlier:
God doesn't "cause" man to sin. Man himself sins! God doesn't twist arms to force anyone to sin. Rather, in the negative sense God removes or withholds restraining grace to give man a longer leash with which to hang himself! God doesn't "hang" anyone; he just allows men to do what comes naturally with their own self-destructive behavior. i.e. hang themselves . And God is perfectly just in removing or withholding HIS grace to undeserving moral creatures since He is not morally obligated to bestow grace upon anyone.

 

[sawdust]

God doesn't "hang" anyone; he just allows men to do what comes naturally with their own self-destructive behavior.

The problem with that is that man (ie. each individual) did not cause this self destructive behaviour, we have Adam to thank for that and he wasn't created with one so what was his excuse?

It also doesn't explain how Paul can desire to do what is right and good when in an unsaved state. Romans 7:15-20

If God had not entered that garden but rather had withdrawn Himself from humanity, then we all would be doomed (doctrine of Total Depravity) but God had made a promise to Himself before time began to give eternal life Titus 1:2 so He had a plan before He laid the foundation of the world. Rev.13:8

But the Lord God has never forsaken His creation, instead He meets us with the Gospel which is Christ who is grace and truth so we can respond freely. Some accept, some reject.

 

[sawdust]

Salvation = regeneration, which precedes good works (Eph. 2:8-10).

I did say that so are you simply confirming or making some statement by which you are disagreeing? I'm a little confused.

 

[GWH]

I would have to say no I do not agree!
I would say that every normal adult is invited, which in no way makes them able!
Just as @Rufus posted earlier:
God doesn't "cause" man to sin. Man himself sins! God doesn't twist arms to force anyone to sin. Rather, in the negative sense God removes or withholds restraining grace to give man a longer leash with which to hang himself! God doesn't "hang" anyone; he just allows men to do what comes naturally with their own self-destructive behavior. i.e. hang themselves . And God is perfectly just in removing or withholding HIS grace to undeserving moral creatures since He is not morally obligated to bestow grace upon anyone.

Disagreement is wrong, but inevitable and so Phil. 3:15-16 is applicable.
I still believe God loves everyone and does not show favoritism to anyone,
but I guess it is pointless to keep citing Scripture teaching that truth,
since you reject what was taught in the three passages we discussed--
so happy trails! LIC, GWH

 

[GWH]

Those Scriptures once again were:

First, Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching. The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."
Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."
Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."
Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."


Second, 1Cor. 1:18-21, "The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe."

The immediate context includes:

1Cor. 1:23-24, "We preach Christ crucified... to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."

Commentary: Again, "We preach to all natural men", and "to those natural men God has called". From this we learn that
God's method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that God desires all to believe. This prompts the question: Is "desire" in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God's "calling" in 1Cor. 1:24--and we might add with God's "drawing" in John 12:32 and with God's "invitation" in Matt. 22:14?

The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God's calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

Continuing with the context:

1Cor. 1:26, "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called... Not many were influential." They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God's calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise... the lowly... and the despised". God's saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that "no one may boast before him" (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, "When I came to you, brothers... I proclaimed to you... Jesus Christ and him crucified." Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul's preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, "God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." God's HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).


Third, Deut. 29:4, "To this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear."

Commentary: Tulipist - God sovereignly withheld grace from them! Moses blamed Israel's lack of faithfulness/obedience on God
(cf. Rom. 1:18-23).

Immediate context:

Deut. 28:1 & 15, "If you fully obey the Lord your God... God will set you high above all the nations on earth...
However, if you do not obey the Lord your God... all these curses will come upon you." Commentary - This verse implies
that the Israelites are free to obey or disobey.

Deut. 29:9, "Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do." Commentary - This seems
to indicate that the Israelites can follow or not follow the terms.

Deut. 30:19b-20a, "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life,
so that you and your children might live and that you may love the Lord your God." Commentary - This is the clearest
statement of what Moses meant, and it obviously teaches that the Israelites are deemed to have MFW.

 

[Magenta]

The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Isaiah 14 verse 24 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the purposes of His heart to all generations. Psalm 33 verse 11 Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases. Psalm 115 verse 3 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. Proverbs 19 verse 21 In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8 verses 28-30 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5

 

[Kroogz]

What was utterly dumb was Kroog's attempt to romanticize slavery and downplay its seriousness.

The natural slave knows, hears and sees freedom. They may not try to escape it because of certain circumstances. But they all can see freedom.
And the Father put His Son on display......For ALL slaves to see freedom.

Dumb to a calvie. Brilliant concerning God.

 

[cv5]

The natural slave knows, hears and sees freedom. They may not try to escape it because of certain circumstances. But they all can see freedom.
And the Father put His Son on display......For ALL slaves to see freedom.

Dumb to a calvie. Brilliant concerning God.

Come to think of it, every Israelite in the wilderness who was bitten by serpents had the God-given CAPABILITY to HEAR the command of Moses, ACT upon the command, and also SEE the bronze serpent, whereby they may be saved from death.

Same goes for the Passover in Egypt. Everyone could HEAR the command of God regarding the blood. Everyone had the CAPABILITY to understand the requirement and ACT upon the command whereby they might be saved from the angel of judgement.

All of this a scathing rebuttal to the pretentions of the super-determinists.

 

[brightfame52]

We're not talking about becoming a slave of righteousness, you need to be in a saved state for that to happen. We are talking about hearing the Gospel so one can choose of their own free will to accept or reject the truth of God. Man's will is bound to sin which is why God meets us with grace so we can hear the truth for ourselves and be free to respond without manipulation or coercion or any other interference. Grace isn't simply God being a nice guy, it is real power that is given in grace. This is why grace is given to the humble but God resists the proud, the arrogant always abuse power. Jm.4:6

You have the cart before the horse. You have a person saved (regenerated) and then have them hear the Gospel. The Gospel is the power unto salvation, not regeneration. Rom.1:16

A Servant of righteousness is to become a believer in and follower of Christ

 

[Kroogz]

All of this a scathing rebuttal to the pretentions of the super-determinists.

You know as well as I do. Every calvie is a super-determinist at the end of the day.

Some are just super-good at mincing words.

 

[Magenta]

A Servant of righteousness is to become a believer in and follower of Christ

Those given to Jesus by God WILL come to Him.

 

[Kroogz]

A Servant of righteousness is to become a believer in and follower of Christ

So you were a servant of righteousness before you believed?

Calvies are works based, don't let them fool you.

 

[Rufus]

I asked:

Re "If God desires all men to be saved, then why didn't he perform a miracle by opening the eyes and unstopping the ears of the ancient Hebrews in the wilderness (Deut 29:4-9) so that He would be able to impart spiritual understanding to them?":

GWH in 2174 replied:
Because God desired to have a relationship with souls created in His image (having MFW), not with robots.

In spite of the fact that there are numerous scriptures that teach that God himself graciously imparts knowledge, wisdom and understanding to His People, GWH apparently sees such action by God as being reprehensible because if He actually did such a thing it would turn him into a Dr. Frankenstein who creates mind-numb robots. So, what Moses was really telling the people in Deut 29:4 is:

Everyone got lucky because God didn't force you to believe in Him by giving you spiritual eyes and ears to understand spiritual truth. He chose instead to graciously allow your helpless butts to continue in your rebellious ways and perish in your sins."

To hardcore FWers like GWH, the above makes perfectly good sense in spite of Jesus imparting spiritual understanding to two disciples (Lk 24:27, 45), opening up the understanding of other disciples (1Jn 5:20) and thus fulfilling His mission to open the eyes of the blind (Isa 42:6-7), etc. (Of course, some FWer will probably tell us that this latter passage is referring to only physically blind eyes.)

Or what about Lydia when God opened her heart to understand the message of life (Act 16:14)? God had the audacious temerity to turn her into a robot.

Or what about the Psalmist who often prayed to God to [effectually] give him spiritual understanding (Ps 119:18, 34, etc.)?

Or how about Job when he said that spiritual understanding is not found on this planet and that it's hidden from the eyes of every living being and only God alone knows where it dwells (Job 28:20-23), etc.? Job must have been very badly mistaken.

 

[Magenta]

In spite of the fact that there are numerous scriptures that teach that God himself graciously imparts knowledge, wisdom and understanding to His People, GWH apparently sees such action by God as being reprehensible because if He actually did such a thing it would turn him into a Dr. Frankenstein who creates mind-numb robots. So, what Moses was really telling the people in Deut 29:4 is:

Everyone got lucky because God didn't force you to believe in Him by giving you spiritual eyes and ears to understand spiritual truth. He chose instead to graciously allow your helpless butts to continue in your rebellious ways and perish in your sins."

To hardcore FWers like GWH, the above makes perfectly good sense in spite of Jesus imparting spiritual understanding to two disciples (Lk 24:27, 45), opening up the understanding of other disciples (1Jn 5:20) and thus fulfilling His mission to open the eyes of the blind (Isa 42:6-7), etc. (Of course, some FWer will probably tell us that this latter passage is referring to only physically blind eyes.)

Or what about Lydia when God opened her heart to understand the message of life (Act 16:14)? God had the audacious temerity to turn her into a robot.

Or what about the Psalmist who often prayed to God to [effectually] give him spiritual understanding (Ps 119:18, 34, etc.)?

Or how about Job when he said that spiritual understanding is not found on this planet and that it's hidden from the eyes of every living being and only God alone knows where it dwells (Job 28:20-23), etc.? Job must have been very badly mistaken.

They'll just tell us God is unfair to reveal Himself one way to one person and another way to someone else.

Where do Christians get off blaspheming God like that?

Ya gotta wonder.

And let us not forget that the FW claim is also for Him to act unilaterally makes Him an unjust tyrannical
monster kidnapping people against their will. Just more blasphemy. But they call themselves Christian?